Arwen is Xenaelf?

[Wayfarer]

Are you really that dense? Or are you just putting on an act for the purposes of being irritating.

It is you, my friend, who have succumbed to a very common ailment- the so called 'two-tone perception syndrome'. JD has given no indication, in any of his posts, in the almost four years I have been visiting these boards. That he considers that anything that was not explicitly spelled out in the literature is totally out of bounds.' Come on.

The fact is that the behavior in the ford scene does make Arwen out to be very macho and cheezy, which adds to the overwhelming impression that frodo is a complete wuss- the exact opposite of the book in which he was far and away (imho) the strongest of all the characters. /This/ is the complaint that has been voiced about that scene, and no other.

[Curufinwe]

Deeply sorry I ignored all of your well thought out and articulated points. But mine have yet to be addressed. You have a problem with her at the ford, but not with riding a horse or drawing a sword - cheers. What was it? she spoke? Oh yes I forgot the scene where she flexes her back muscles.

I also fail to see how sucumbing to a wound from a weapon of the nazgul makes Frodo a "wuss" to use the vernacular.

[Sister Golden Hair]

NOTE -JD is correct in pointing out the ban on the term (purist.) Please read the stickys at the top of the main forum page. We will not resort to labeling movie or book fans because they disagree.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Are you really that dense? Or are you just putting on an act for the purposes of being irritating.

It is you, my friend, who have succumbed to a very common ailment- the so called 'two-tone perception syndrome'. JD has given no indication, in any of his posts, in the almost four years I have been visiting these boards. That he considers that anything that was not explicitly spelled out in the literature is totally out of bounds.' Come on.

The fact is that the behavior in the ford scene does make Arwen out to be very macho and cheezy, which adds to the overwhelming impression that frodo is a complete wuss- the exact opposite of the book in which he was far and away (imho) the strongest of all the characters. /This/ is the complaint that has been voiced about that scene, and no other.

Thank very much Wayfarer. Always good to know someone who has been on this board long enough to know what I have repeatedly said can back me up.

[cassiopeia]

Originally posted by Curufinwe
I also fail to see how sucumbing to a wound from a weapon of the nazgul makes Frodo a "wuss" to use the vernacular.

No, that's not it at all. It's that Frodo was silent when Arwen said her cheesy lines. In the book he speaks a wonderful and powerful line, which I put in a previous post. That's what makes Frodo appear weak in the movie -- he said naught.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Curufinwe
Deeply sorry I ignored all of your well thought out and articulated points. But mine have yet to be addressed. You have a problem with her at the ford, but not with riding a horse or drawing a sword - cheers. What was it? she spoke? Oh yes I forgot the scene where she flexes her back muscles.

I also fail to see how sucumbing to a wound from a weapon of the nazgul makes Frodo a "wuss" to use the vernacular.

Have you READ the book? I must assume you have since you knew Arwen's lineage- but the more and more you speak the more I question whether you even understood the importance of that scene in the book to the development of Frodo's character. I suggest you reread it.

As for you downright sarcasm - no need for me to respond to anything there.

BTW - I also agree with Wayfarer, Frodo was very strong and in my mind the STRONGEST character in the book also. This is a KEY scene that demonstrates his strength and Jackson completely destroyed it.

[Celebréiel]

Originally posted by cassiopeia
Well, she is XenaArwen/XenaElf in the movies compared to in the books. In the book she makes a banner and gives Frodo her star-jewel (not Evenstar!!) In the movies she resuces Frodo after he was stabbed, nearly was given a fighting role at Helm's Deep and is involved in the ROTK as well. Anyway, does it really matter what name we give her?

yeah that about says it all!
Who really cares, its just a joke, its nothing to get worked up about. And watch it again, it wasnt just what she did but certainly how she said it all cheesy like.....she really was xenaelf! The name just fits!

[LuthienTinuviel]

i really don'tmind arwen as much as i used too.. but i do remember myself saying once upon a time that frodo was weakened..

besides, who else but xenarwen could outride ALL NINE nazgul?

[Wayfarer]

BTW - I also agree with Wayfarer, Frodo was very strong and in my mind the STRONGEST character in the book also. This is a KEY scene that demonstrates his strength and Jackson completely destroyed it.

And before I hear any foolish claims to the contrary, let me state that of the large number of friends who had never read the books (but saw the films), I have yet to speak to any of them who has not said that Frodo was the weakest character.

Fie on you, Peter Jackson.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by LuthienTinuviel
i really don'tmind arwen as much as i used too.. but i do remember myself saying once upon a time that frodo was weakened..

besides, who else but xenarwen could outride ALL NINE nazgul?

Frodo could, on Glorfindel's horse, all by himself.

[Curufinwe]

I wanted to talk about the term "Xena-Elf or Arwen" unfortunately it doesnt seem like it was her behavior that actually earned her the term. Apparently it was her overshadowing of Frodo at the Ford. I didn't want to address that scene here since it requires a far deeper deconstruction of the literature vis-a-vis Jackson's interpretation of the literature. I assure you I have READ the book! No need to shout my lad. I have tought undergraduate and post graduate English literature at the University of Massachusetts for the past 14 years and I require my post-grad students to read it so I'm fairly familiar with it. I'm not sure how much leeway this posts allow in terms on tonage so I'll simply get started referencing the source material. Oh and I absolutely believe Frodo is the character with the greatest arc - thus the hero. However I personally believe Sam is the strongest. In any case - The Flight to the Ford from my second hand Ballantine Paperback.


p. 285 paragraph 2

Fear now filled all Frodo's mind. He thought no longer of his sword. No cry came from him. He shut his eyes and clung to the horse's mane. The wind whistled in his ears, and the bells upon the harness rang wild and shrill. A breath of deadly col pierced him like a spear, as with a last spurt, like a flash of white fire, the elf-horse speeding as if on wings, passed right before the face of the foremost Rider.

p. 285 paragraph 4

But the pursuers were close behind. At the top of the bank the horse halted and turned about neighing fiercely. There wer Nine Riders at the water's edge below, and Frodo's spirt qualed before the threat of their uplifted faces. He knew of nothing that would prevent them from crossing as easily as he had done; and he felt that it was useless to try to escape over the long uncertain path from the Ford to the edge of Rivendell, if once the Riders crossed. In any case he felt that he was commanded urgently to halt. Hatred again stirred in him, but he had No Longer the strenth to refuse .

Suddenly the foremost Rider spurred his horse forward. It checked at the water and reared up. With a great effort Frodo sat upright and brandished his sword.

"Go back!" he cried. "Go back to the Land of Mordor, and follow me no more!" His voice sounded thin and shrill in his own ears. The Riders halted, but Frodo had not the power of Bombadil. His enemise laughed at him with a harsh and chilling laughter "Come back! Come back!" they called. "To Mordor we will take you!"

"Go back!" he whispered .

"The Ring! The Ring!" they cried with deadly voices; and immediately their leader urged is horse forward into the water, followed closely by two others.

"By Elbereth and Luthien the Fair," said Frodo with a last effort, lifting up his sword, "you shall have neither the Ring nor me!"

Then the leader, who was now half across the Ford, stood up menacing in his stirrups, and raised up his hand. Frodo was stricken dumb. He felt his tongue cleave to his mouth, and his heart laboring. His sword broke and fell out of his shaking hand. The elf horse reared and snorted. The foremost of the black horses had almost set foot upon the shore.

At that moment came a roar and a rushing: a noise of loud waters rolling over many stones. and etc. .....

I think thats enough. While Frodo is valiant he is also overmatched - the wound is beyond him we understand that. His resistance would come to nothing without the outside aid of Elrond. Frodo is robbed of his lines but the I believe the scenes essentials are there. I don't like Jackson's interpretation in this scene but I dont find it horrendous. Frodo is saved by Asfaloth and Elrond in the literature - he is saved by Arwen and Asfaloth in the film.

To my mind the instance in book I in which Frodo displayed the greatest courage was cut entirely. Im speaking of his actions in the barrow.

p 194 paragraph 1


But though his fear was so great that it seemed to be part of the very darkness tha was round him, he found himself as he lay thinking about Bilbo Baggins and his stories, of their jogging along together in the lanes of the Shire and talking about roads and adventures. There is a seed of courage hidden (often deeply, it is true) in the heart of the fattest and most timid hobbit, waiting for some final and desperate danger to make it grow. Frodo was neigher very fat nor very timid; indeed, though he did not know it, Bilbo (and Gandalf) had thought him the best hobbit in the Shire. He thought he had come to the end of his adventure, and a terrible end, but the thought hardened him. He found himself stiffening, as if for a final spring; he no longer felt limp like a helpless prey.

[Curufinwe]

just a bit more

p 195 paragraph 3

But the courage that had been awakened in him was now too strong: he could not elave his friends so easily. He wavered, groping in his pocket, and then fought with himself again; and as he did so the arm crept nearer. Suddenly resolve hardened in him, and he seized a short sword that lay beside him, and kneeling he stooped low over the bodies of his companions. With what strength he had he hewed at the crawling arm near the wrist and the hand broke off; but at the same moment the sword splintered up to the hilt. There was a shriek and the light vanished. In the dark there was a snarling noise.

That was touch and go dont you think? To borrow a phrase. Perhaps the most dangerous moment of all.

[Wayfarer]

Touch and go, certainly. We're (I'm) not disputing that. The problem is a film scene in which one of Frodo's great scenes is altered to such a degree that he can no longer make the slightest effort on his own behalf and has to be carried. He is, (if I may borrow a phrase 'limp like a helpless prey'.

And need not point out that the scene which you think most greatly showed his courage was one that was cut entirely. Frodo's character has been- to put it lightly -emasculated.

Do you know what? You will never once hear me use the term 'Xena-Arwen' and mean it. Because at least Xena has the dencency to admit that it's completely ridiculous.

[Curufinwe]

Is there some possiblity of not being flamed? Anyone for something constructive.

[Wayfarer]

You have never, ever, seen me flame. On this, you can trust me.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Curufinwe
I wanted to talk about the term "Xena-Elf or Arwen" unfortunately it doesnt seem like it was her behavior that actually earned her the term. Apparently it was her overshadowing of Frodo at the Ford.

Actually I think part of it WAS her behavior, I just think that more people are upset at how she weakened Aragorn's character (by sneaking up on him) and Frodo's character.

I didn't want to address that scene here since it requires a far deeper deconstruction of the literature vis-a-vis Jackson's interpretation of the literature. Interpretation is how someone feels, moves, says something, it does not include changing the whole scene into something completely unrelated.

The thing is - this is where people get confused - there was NO interpretation of the scene on Jackson's part, he just CHANGED it. Interpretation of the scene would include charcater movement, inflection of voice, things of that nature - it does NOT include changing the scene to the point it is completely unrecognizable.

I assure you I have READ the book! No need to shout my lad. I have tought undergraduate and post graduate English literature at the University of Massachusetts for the past 14 years and I require my post-grad students to read it so I'm fairly familiar with it.

It doesn't really matter in my mind if you you teach post graduate and undergraduate studies at a University. From the way you were writing, I am rather surprised actually. And please do NOT be condescending and call me "lad".

Oh and I absolutely believe Frodo is the character with the greatest arc - thus the hero. However I personally believe Sam is the strongest.

Sam is powerful because of his love and friendship for Frodo. But Sam did NOT go through the same turmoil that Frodo did. Frodo had the Ring for years and years, Sam only had it for a couple of days. The two aren't comparable in that respect.

No Longer the strenth to refuse.

His enemise laughed at him with a harsh and chilling laughter

"Go back!" he whispered .

Frodo was stricken dumb. He felt his tongue cleave to his mouth, and his heart laboring. His sword broke and fell out of his shaking hand.

He isn't unconsious and unable to move like he is in the movie. I'm glad you can pick the parts, and highligh the lines that indicate the weakness, but as was repeatedly stated in the book, even a great man would have succumbed to the morgul blade far quicker than Frodo did.

While Frodo is valiant he is also overmatched - the wound is beyond him we understand that. His resistance would come to nothing without the outside aid of Elrond. Frodo is robbed of his lines but the I believe the scenes essentials are there. I don't like Jackson's interpretation in this scene but I dont find it horrendous. Frodo is saved by Asfaloth and Elrond in the literature - he is saved by Arwen and Asfaloth in the film.

NO - it's not the same because Frodo was DEFIANT against them. He resisted them - even if he succumbed at the end and collapsed - they still did not get him to go over to go back to them. Jackson also weakened the Nazguls in Two Towers, by them just flying off while the Ring is two feet from their grasp.

To my mind the instance in book I in which Frodo displayed the greatest courage was cut entirely. Im speaking of his actions in the barrow.

I disagree. The urge to put on the Ring, the Ring wanting to get back to it's master is far more powerful than the Barrow Wights. His ulitmate defiance against the Black Riders is much more important and much stronger than that scene.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Curufinwe
Is there some possiblity of not being flamed? Anyone for something constructive.

I hope you don't think anyone has flamed, because no one has lad.

[Curufinwe]

I'm not sure where all the invective comes from must be the Jersey swamps. I'll agree to disagree I certaintly mean no offence obviously you are passionate in your love of Tolkein. I commend you. I dont believe Jackson's scene is very good but not quite as bad as some seem to be making it. But, I can see your mind is set and commend you for the strength of your conviction. I just thought the term 'XenaArwen' is a little over the top. good night and thanks for the discussion.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Curufinwe
Is there some possiblity of not being flamed? Anyone for something constructive.

I am not aware of any flaming that has occurred. Believe me, if it does, it will be dealt with immediately.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Curufinwe
I'm not sure where all the invective comes from must be the Jersey swamps. I'll agree to disagree I certaintly mean no offence obviously you are passionate in your love of Tolkein.

Maybe it's also your snide comments such as "Jersey swamps" or "lad". From a university professor I would have expected a more MATURE attititude. makes me question your credentials.

I commend you. I dont believe Jackson's scene is very good but not quite as bad as some seem to be making it. But, I can see your mind is set and commend you for the strength of your conviction. I just thought the term 'XenaArwen' is a little over the top. good night and thanks for the discussion.

Glad you can accept that fact that not all of us feel that the term xena-Arwen is over the top. Many of us have discussed Arwen and her role in the movies since 2001.

Oh and if you wanted anyone to hate you for making a snide comment about New Jersey - you picked the right person.