America the Proud?

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Diaxion
Well first of all i am proud but i think that compensations need to happen.

'Compensations'? To who? For what? From who?

If you mean compensation for slavery, I have to disagree with you on that. I agree that slavery was a hideous mark upon the history of any country that allowed such a thing, European countries, North America, South America, Africa, etc. But to say that America is the only country that needs to make reparations for slavery is wrong and it is narrow minded.

[Lalaith]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Well many European countries - such as France - you can not really be French unless your family originates from france. A person from india could not move to France and fully become French. However - anyone can come here - take the citizenship test and become 100% American - the only thing they can not do is become president - but they can run for Congress or any other office (Like Arnold Swartzenagger is running for Governor of California even though he is an immigrant) - how many countries could that happen in?

I'm not quite sure if it is easier to get the citizenship in America than in Europe. At least you don't need a visa in most of the european country.
I can't judge it how easy or difficult it is to get a politician as I don't know it.

But I think that you are able to become the mayor of a town if you are an EU citizen. (Do you know the word burgomaster? my dictionary said it).

I still think that it is disproportionate (another dictionary word) to talk that way about other countries and to say that eg the right of free speech is a only-US-right.

[Spock]

pleeeease get these ignorant (see webster=not knowing) people straightened out j.d.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Lalaith
I'm not quite sure if it is easier to get the citizenship in America than in Europe. At least you don't need a visa in most of the european country.
I can't judge it how easy or difficult it is to get a politician as I don't know it.

But I think that you are able to become the mayor of a town if you are an EU citizen. (Do you know the word burgomaster? my dictionary said it).

I know what a burgermeister is. But I don't think a French citizen can become mayor of a German city - can they? Concerning the visa question - Europeans dont' require a visa to just come in for a vacation. I don't need a passport to travel between Canada, the US and Mexico.

In the US you can hold any office except President - as long as you are an American citizen - either born or immigrant. It doesn't matter what country the person is from. As for outside residents running for office within the states - that is based on state laws. Hillary Clinton was able to run as Senator of NY - because NY allows outside residents to run in their congressional elections even though she was an Arkansas resident at the time - other states do not allow this though.

I still think that it is disproportionate (another dictionary word) to talk that way about other countries and to say that eg the right of free speech is a only-US-right.

Other countries ALLOW free speech - our Constitution GUARANTEES it though. The law of the land IS the Constitution of the United States - no one, not the president, Congress or the Supreme Court is above the Constitution. many laws have been thrown out because they have been determined unconstitutional. That is something that makes our country unique. Free Speech can only be rescended by....

Article V

The Congress, whenever two thirds of both houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose amendments to this Constitution, or, on the application of the legislatures of two thirds of the several states, shall call a convention for proposing amendments, which, in either case, shall be valid to all intents and purposes, as part of this Constitution, when ratified by the legislatures of three fourths of the several states, or by conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other mode of ratification may be proposed by the Congress; provided that no amendment which may be made prior to the year one thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any manner affect the first and fourth clauses in the ninth section of the first article; and that no state, without its consent, shall be deprived of its equal suffrage in the Senate.

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Ruinel
'Compensations'? To who? For what? From who?

If you mean compensation for slavery, I have to disagree with you on that. I agree that slavery was a hideous mark upon the history of any country that allowed such a thing, European countries, North America, South America, Africa, etc. But to say that America is the only country that needs to make reparations for slavery is wrong and it is narrow minded.

I agree with Ruinel...

In addition - the majority of slaves were sent to Brazil anyway. 23% of slaves were sent to Brazil - the next largest percentage was sent to the Carribean - North America received less than 10%. I can't remember the actual figure - but it was low single digits.

Why don't people get on Brazils case and the Carribean? Not to mention Europe and Africa since they brought slavery to the Americans. I think it's for the same reason people don't sue when they get hit by a beat up car - but if a mercedes hits them - they're in the courthouse with back pains and sexual problems in a blink of an eye.

[Elf Girl]

Originally posted by Jonathan
Like, almost all of Western Europe and parts of Eastern Europe?

Very few countries in Europe have not undergone major governmental reform since 1776.

[Rían]

I just read in the news about another athlete defecting to the US - this one was a gymnast from Cuba. You don't get too many people going the other way!

[Spock]

Elf Girl, welcome back and I hope your recovery is going well.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Elf Girl
Very few countries in Europe have not undergone major governmental reform since 1776.

That is true - but they still have the same history, culture ect. They don't stop teaching German history before the Berlin Wall fell as German History. The countries are still the same for the most part - with some just having different forms of governments. Before King John - there was no Parliament in England - no Magna Carta - but England was still England.

By the way - all Nazi stuff is outlawed in Germany (even Wolfenstein) - that would completely not be allowed in the US. The NJ public libraries even took the Federal Government to court because they wanted to require all public libraries to have censorware on their computers. The libraried here feel that it is in violation of the First Amendment.

[GrayMouser]

Well many European countries - such as France - you can not really be French unless your family originates from france. A person from india could not move to France and fully become French.

Are you talking legally?

Who is Eligible to Apply for French Citizenship?

Broadly speaking, under French citizenship law, there are two different procedures, one for foreigners married to a French national (vive l'amour!) and one for those who are not.

If You are Married to a French National

This form of acquiring French citizenship is called acquisition par déclaration. In general, you must be married for at least twelve months, or have had a child together (before or after getting married), and you should intend to stay married for at least another year (otherwise, it will be considered a case of fraud). Note that you do not have to be living in France. In fact, there is no residency requirement for spouses of French citizens to acquire French citizenship by declaration. The only requirement is that you have been married for one year to a French national.
<snip>

If You are Not Married to a French National

This form of acquiring French citizenship is termed acquisition par naturalisation. You can apply for French citizenship by naturalization if:

You are at least 18 years of age; and

You can prove that you have been legally resident in France for the five years preceding your application; or

For two years, if you have successfully completed two years of tertiary studies in a French higher education institution (university or Grande Ecole), or if you can provide an important service to France through your talents

[GrayMouser]

What other country in the world can you point to where a poor black boy from an immigrant family from Jamaica can grow up to be Secretary of State and run for President like Colin Powell?

Not aware that he actually did run, but to answer the question:
Canada-

Minister of Natural Resources:
DHALIWAL, The Hon. HARBANCE SINGH (HERB), P.C., B.Comm.

DATE AND PLACE OF BIRTH: 1952.12.12 Punjab, India

Minister of Veterans Affairs:
PAGTAKHAN, The Hon. Dr. REY D., P.C., M.D.

DATE AND PLACE OF BIRTH: 1935.01.07 Manila, Philippines

As for Arnold, many Canadian provincial premiers have had foreign origins.

Canada and the U.S. ( and to a lesser extent degree Australia) are different from most countries in that they are composed of immigrants and their descendants- other countries are based on
the ethnic group/groups that were living there when the nation-state system developed.

Looking back to your earlier posting about France, I guess that's what you mean, and I think you're basically right- people from most countries would tend to identify "a real ______ " as someone with ancestral links.

There's a movement here in Taiwan to allow dual citizenship for foreigners, and if that happens I will certainly become a citizen of the Republic of China, but I wouldn't bet on my neighbours agreeing that I'm Chinese.

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by Ruinel
'Compensations'? To who? For what? From who?

If you mean compensation for slavery, I have to disagree with you on that. I agree that slavery was a hideous mark upon the history of any country that allowed such a thing, European countries, North America, South America, Africa, etc. But to say that America is the only country that needs to make reparations for slavery is wrong and it is narrow minded.

There are two different reparation movements- one by some African countries, and that is directed toward European countries as well, and another by African-Americans, and that's purely a US affair- though I think both are wrong.

(Wrong in terms of the justification offered, not wrong in terms of desired results)

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
Not aware that he actually did run, but to answer the question:
Canada-

Minister of Natural Resources:
DHALIWAL, The Hon. HARBANCE SINGH (HERB), P.C., B.Comm.

DATE AND PLACE OF BIRTH: 1952.12.12 Punjab, India

Minister of Veterans Affairs:
PAGTAKHAN, The Hon. Dr. REY D., P.C., M.D.

DATE AND PLACE OF BIRTH: 1935.01.07 Manila, Philippines

As for Arnold, many Canadian provincial premiers have had foreign origins.

Canada and the U.S. ( and to a lesser extent degree Australia) are different from most countries in that they are composed of immigrants and their descendants- other countries are based on
the ethnic group/groups that were living there when the nation-state system developed.

True and Canada is the closest country to the US in terms of immigration. We pretty much have a non-existent border between our two countries.

Looking back to your earlier posting about France, I guess that's what you mean, and I think you're basically right- people from most countries would tend to identify "a real ______ " as someone with ancestral links.

That is basically what I meant. I knew I could become a citizen of France - but woudl I be considered a Frenchman? I seriously doubt it - not that i would want to though.

I would, however, like to know what type of investigation people have to go through to determine they have successfully "assimilated into French society".

Citizenship and Immigration Policy

Applications are made to your local prefecture. The procedure includes an investigation of the extent that you have assimilated into French society and takes about 12 months.

The US doesn't have an 'assimilation" requirement. Also - unlike France - any child born on US soil is automatically given US citizenship.

Acquiring Another Citizenship - France

Children born in France to two non-French parents acquire French citizenship when they turn 18 if the following two conditions have been fulfilled:

*

they must be currently resident in France at the time of application; and
*

they must have lived at least 5 years (continuously or discontinuously) in France since the age of 11.

Application can be made from the age of 16 by the child him/herself, or from the age of 13 by the applicant's parents and with the child's consent, providing the five year residency requirement has been met in both cases. Read further information on the website of the French Consulate-General in Sydney in English here. The French Ministère des Affaires Etrangères has website information in French.

I took that from the site you quoted in the last post concerning French citizenship. Many mexicans wait until their due date - come across the border here and give birth - their children then automatically become US citizens (they also end up getting free health care too).

There's a movement here in Taiwan to allow dual citizenship for foreigners, and if that happens I will certainly become a citizen of the Republic of China, but I wouldn't bet on my neighbours agreeing that I'm Chinese.

I'm basically against dual citizenship - people should decide one country or another. But I agree with your last statement - I can become a citizen of Japan I suppose - but would I ever be considered Japanese? A Japanese person can come over here and is considered and called an American (I hate the hyphenation crap). As Theodore Roosevelt said....

"There is no place for the hyphen in our citizenship... We are a nation, not a hodge-podge of foreign nationalities. We are a people, and not a polyglot boarding house."

I used to have that in my sig.

[Lalaith]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
[B]I know what a burgermeister is. But I don't think a French citizen can become mayor of a German city - can they?

Actually I think they can. If the French person lives in Germany but is still a citizen of France. It has to work.
But the question is if the people would elect him.


Another thing. I have thought about Pride and Nations for long.

IMO pride for a special nation or country is absolutely not neccessary.
It may be justified if you have build up a country or did something very important, then you can be proud.
But if a person is just a citizen of a country, why should the person be proud? At least not the persons who were born with the citizenship. They have done nothing to "deserve" the citizenship. They were just born in the right country or had the right parents.
And to be proud of the history of a country. You could say that you are proud because you are a descendant of the persons who build the country. But that was still not your effort.
Most people never did anything imporant for their country so I don't think it is justified to be proud of being a citizen.

I am Austrian.
But I am not proud to be Austrian, because I have done nothing to deserve the citizenship. I was just born lucky.
I am grateful that I am from Austria because there are worse countries where I wouldn't have had the opportunities that I have here.

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
True and Canada is the closest country to the US in terms of immigration. We pretty much have a non-existent border between our two countries.

That is basically what I meant. I knew I could become a citizen of France - but woudl I be considered a Frenchman? I seriously doubt it - not that i would want to though.

I would, however, like to know what type of investigation people have to go through to determine they have successfully "assimilated into French society".


The US doesn't have an 'assimilation" requirement. Also - unlike France - any child born on US soil is automatically given US citizenship.

"assimilated into French society"
cheese-tasting test?

I think on immigration Canada has become much more like the States. Originally we had the myth of "two founding nations" - English and French - and anybody who wasn't French was supposed to assimilate into the English "nation".

Mordecai Richler pointed out that in the 1930s and 40s Montreal Jews caught between these polarities looked to New York as their spiritual homeland.

With the huge waves of non-Anglo immigration we've come much
closer to the melting pot idea.

Now if we could only get rid of that Limey Queen ...

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
... Many mexicans wait until their due date - come across the border here and give birth - their children then automatically become US citizens (they also end up getting free health care too).

You would be shocked to find out also, that these children are also now entitled to welfare benefits, food stamps and free medical benefits, courtesy of the taxpayers of the USA. Since their parents' work information can not be verified, all the parents need is a US address (perhaps a friend or relative who lives across the border, that is willing to claim they live there), even if they actually live in Mexico and claim they are both unemployed, and the child receives benefits. Many children that live on the border of Mexico and Texas cross that border every day to go to the US schools, also free of charge courtesy of the taxpayers of the USA. Those children do not have to be a US citizen, only need to 'claim' they live in the US. All of that can be verified with a letter from a friend or relative who lives here.

Originally posted by GrayMouser[/i]
"assimilated into French society"
cheese-tasting test?

HEY! I love cheese.

Now if we could only get rid of that Limey Queen ...

Agreed!!!

[Spock]

Yep the Mexican situation is a huge problem. Calif. is the worst with Az. next. Having moved from Tucson I can tell you on top of all that has been said above, the emergency services are also in deep debt from the costs of rescuing illegals. It never abates and Az. in one year caught almost 500,000 illegals crossing over....think of it...that's what they 'caught'.
Now with the Mexican govn't. giving that ID card for $29 and municipalities allowing it to be used for granting of services such as water, electric and banking, there's no hope of stemming the tide nor solving the problem.

[Sween]

I dont think america should make out that its the easiest country to get into or is not predudice. My mums old boss wanted to take her child to disney world but was politally informed that she would not be allowed to come to america because she is russian!

As for imigration i think america has got it right England is a soft touch in my opinion in this matter and we have too many people come into this country who only want an easy life style! End of the day for EU citizens it doesnty matter if we have to become German or not because we are free to work anywhere in EU member states. IM very proud of the 1992 single european act , Not so proud the torys fought tooth and nail to reject it

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sween
I dont think america should make out that its the easiest country to get into or is not predudice. My mums old boss wanted to take her child to disney world but was politally informed that she would not be allowed to come to america because she is russian!

Who told her that? I have a friend who is Russian and I knew her before she movied to LA from Moscow. She is even former KGB and was allowed into the country. She has been here for about 6 years now and is trying to get her green card I believe. It's been a huge beauracratic mess - but she works here. Her husband also came out a couple of years after her with no problems. I've known MANY Russian immigrants. I will grant you that it is more difficult to take a child who is not yours to the US.

Lalaith - you don't have to be proud of being Austrian, or your country - that is your decision. Personally I don't completely understand it. But I am proud of America - what we have accomplished, I am proud of being American, and I am proud of my ancestors for packing up there life into a small suitcase - getting to a crowded haul of a ship and making their way to Ellis Island to a land they had no idea about. I have just as much a right and a joy to celebrate 4th of July as my friend jason whose family was one of the original founders of Virginia and descendant of Ben Franklin. American history is MY history - I really don't care about Ireland, Russia, Italy, Poland, Czechloslavakia. To me they are foreign countries - I am interested in them as foreign countries - not as MY countries. I'm only one nationality - American. And that's the country I care about the most. And I am proud to be an American.

Runiel I knew about that - it is one of the reasons why California is so much in debt, as Spock alluded to. The tax payers pay for all these illegal aliens - without having the tax base. What was really interesting was the outcry of rage when California proposed eliminating public education benefits from illigal aliens. It did go through. I don't know why so many California liberals feel that people who illegally come to this country deserve any benefits. It's bankrupting California and many other states. It also just encourages them to come here illegally - because there are no consequences once they are here.

[HOBBIT]

"My mums old boss wanted to take her child to disney world but was politally informed that she would not be allowed to come to america because she is russian!"

huh, what?

That makes no sense, especially if it is just for a vacation! There are a ton of russian immigrants here - heck even my ancestors were mostly from Russia.


Informed by whom? The gov? I doubt it. Maybe the ticket salesmen or something.