Arwens Mortality.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by samwise of the shire
If Arwen gave Frodo her place on the boat, then maybe they traded their mortality? So then Frodo became immortal, and Arwen became mortal.

No, no. Arwen did not give Frodo her place in the boat. She had not the authority to do this. Only the Valar could, and did, grant Frodo, Sam and Gimli permission to come to The Undying Lands. And none of them became immortal, they still had to die.

[Aranwe]

No, no. Arwen did not give Frodo her place in the boat. She had not the authority to do this.

I disagree.

I know they didn't become immortal... but Arwen definately says that Frodo can take her place on the boat.

"A gift I will give you. For I am the daughter of Elrond. I shall not go with him now when he departs to the Haven; for mine is the choice of Luthien, and as she so have I chosen, both the sweet and the bitter. But in my stead you shall go, Ring-bearer, when the time comes, and if you then desire it."

If it wasn't her that gave him it, that'd be like stealing someones watch then giving it back to them as a birthday present

Maybe once they got there they needed the permission of the Valar to enter, but there was no way the Valar could stop them from sailing there without stopping Elrond, Galadriel, Legolas, Gildor and the other Elves that went with them at the time.

[Artanis]

Aranwe, sorry, I'm confused. What do you disagree with: The authority thing or Arwen giving Frodo her place?

I may not have been clear: I'm sure Arwen herself could not grant anyone that is not an Elf permission to come into the West. Only the Valar could do that. But she could have known that the Valar had given Frodo such a permission. Anyway, I don't think it is right to say that Frodo went in her place. I think Frodo could have come even if Arwen hadn't chosen to remain in Middle-Earth. They could both have come to Tol Eressea, if they had chosen so.

Maybe once they got there they needed the permission of the Valar to enter, but there was no way the Valar could stop them from sailing there without stopping Elrond, Galadriel, Legolas, Gildor and the other Elves that went with them at the time.

No, but IMO Frodo would not have come if he hadn't known he would be accepted, and the Elves would not have travelled with him if they didn't know the same thing. They knew that anyone trying to find the straight road without permission, would simply not find it.

[markedel]

Well it was a given that Arwen would stay-Elrond's foresight made it clear that if Aragorn prevailed his daughter would be his Queen. If Aragorn failed Arwen would have had to flee west.

[samwise of the shire]

Only the Valar could, and did, grant Frodo, Sam and Gimli permission to come to The Undying Lands. And none of them became immortal, they still had to die.

Wait a second I have another question. Well another two if you dont mind.
#1. Why are the Undying Lands called the Undying Lands if you die anyway when you go there?
#2. Wait is the point of going to the Undying Lands if you're not an elf, Maia or in need of healing (like an elf, Gandalf or Frodo)? I mean if you're not going to live forever in a paradise untouched by evil then why make yourself more miserable in living there and realizing you're gonna die sooner or later?
Could you tell me where you found the bit that says you dont become immortal when you go to the dying lands? That bring sup another bit. It says in the book that when Frodo is in the boat a veil or curtain of rain rose up or parted to let the boat through.
Was that to keep those not allowed into the Undying Lands from entering them? But I thought that was for the land of the Valar when the Numenorean kings tried sailing across the ocean? Then what was the curtain to the Undying Lands for? Was it Valar? Or an Imitation of them? I that case I'd think that those that went to the Undying Lands would become immortal.
This is confusing,
Cheers,
Sam

[cassiopeia]

IIRC, it says in the Letters of JRR Tolkien and Morgoth's Ring that Frodo (thus mortals) would die at the Undying Lands. I'm sure Artanis or Rian could find a quote for you.

[Artanis]

Artanis surely will

Originally posted by samwise of the shire
#1. Why are the Undying Lands called the Undying Lands if you die anyway when you go there?

Well, it was the home of the Ainur, and Elves dwelt there, and the beasts and the plants that lived there did not die. But the few mortals who ever came there must die, it was their nature, their gift given to them by Eru. Only Eru himself could take that gift back, and that (presumably) happened only once, in the case of Tuor.

#2. Wait is the point of going to the Undying Lands if you're not an elf, Maia or in need of healing (like an elf, Gandalf or Frodo)? I mean if you're not going to live forever in a paradise untouched by evil then why make yourself more miserable in living there and realizing you're gonna die sooner or later?

There is no point in that, unless you want to experience beauty and bliss beyond your imagining. Or unless you want to follow a dear friend and want to meet again a beloved Elf-woman, like Gimli did.

Could you tell me where you found the bit that says you dont become immortal when you go to the dying lands?

From letter #325:

As for Frodo or other mortals, they could only dwell in Aman for a limited time – whether brief or long. The Valar had neither the power nor the right to confer 'immortality' upon them. Their sojourn was a 'purgatory', but one of peace and healing and they would eventually pass away (die at their own desire and of free will) to destinations of which the Elves knew nothing.

That bring sup another bit. It says in the book that when Frodo is in the boat a veil or curtain of rain rose up or parted to let the boat through.

I don't read this literally. It is a convenient physical description of being allowed to enter, to be let in. Aman was removed from the circles of the world after the Downfall of Númenor, and only the Eldar could go there by the 'straight road'. Frodo, Sam and Gimli as mortals was allowed to come by a special grace of the Valar.

[samwise of the shire]

Their sojourn was a 'purgatory', but one of peace and healing and they would eventually pass away (die at their own desire and of free will) to destinations of which the Elves knew nothing.

So they could choose when they died? Or could they only choose to die in the Undying Lands?
I have another question though. Why were only ringbearers and elves let into the Undying Lands? Would Gollum have been permitted had he lived even though he hated Frodo, Sam and Elves? And Merry and Pippin they could've gone too if they wanted too right cause they were friends to the Ringbearers, but they didn't because they had a duty to fufill? Was it the fact that the Ring wore down on whoever owned to the point of needing healing? But then what about the Elvish and Dwarvish rings. Did THEY wear down THEIR owners?
I'm sorry I'm bothering you with all these questions Artanis. You just have so many answers and I like learning about elves and what not so thanks.
Cheers,
Sam
ps. If you'd like me to PM you with questions from now on I can do that.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by samwise of the shire
So they could choose when they died? Or could they only choose to die in the Undying Lands?

Well, Aragorn, and the Dúnedain, could choose to die when age caught up on them. Before their decline and fall, the Númenorean kings laid themselves down to die when they felt time was due. I think in the West the body of a mortal would be strenghtened, to a point where death could be postponed, but a human would still feel an urge to be released from the world. Death was the gift to Men from Eru, and the spirits of Men are only as guests in this world, they do not belong in Arda and would yearn to leave when the natural life-span was over. They could choose, but they would feel when the time was due.

Why were only ringbearers and elves let into the Undying Lands?

At the end of the First age, when Morgoth was overthrown, the Eldar received permission to go to the West if they so desired (The Noldor got permission to return). Mortals were in general not allowed, for their own good. They would not have felt blessed in the Blessed Realm, since everything was suited to fit people that would not die. They would 'wither even as a moth in a flame too bright'. Everything around them would seem unchangeable. They would not be content with what they had, but would be filled with envy towards the Elves and the Ainur, as you yourself pointed out earlier.

There's a short section in HoME 10, Morgoth's Ring: "Aman and Mortal Men". It gives good answers to why mortals should not live in Aman.

Was it the fact that the Ring wore down on whoever owned to the point of needing healing? But then what about the Elvish and Dwarvish rings. Did THEY wear down THEIR owners?

In Frodo's case it was not only the Ring, I think it was more the wound he recieved from the Morgul-knife on Weathertop, and the sting from Shelob. Plus he had gone through a lot of 'education' on his quest, remember how he could percieve Galadriel's ring in Lórien, and guess her thoughts, and how all his senses were enhanced.

The Elvish rings were not tainted by Sauron, I don't think their bearers did suffer from them. But the 9 and the 7 did a lot of harm to their owners.

I'm sorry I'm bothering you with all these questions Artanis. You just have so many answers and I like learning about elves and what not so thanks.

It's no bother, your questions are good and they make me think about these things over again, which also is good But remember that the answers I give is my answers, not the answers, if you understand. I give you my opinion, but I'm not an expert, and other people will disagree with me. And, though I hate it I must sometimes admit that these other people may be right, so my opinion is also subject to changes.

[Maerbenn]

There is a quite definitive statement in letter #345:

Arwen was not an elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights.

[Anglorfin]

All the Half-Elven were given the choice of whether to be counted among the Eldar or the Atani, and not surprisingly she would probably want to share her lover's fate.

[congressmn]

halfelven and aragorn, wht kinda sleezy combination wud that be?

[Anglorfin]

Originally posted by congressmn
halfelven and aragorn, wht kinda sleezy combination wud that be?

Eldarion

[Maerbenn]

Originally Posted by Anglorfin

All the Half-Elven were given the choice of whether to be counted among the Eldar or the Atani

Dior was “the first of the Pereðil (Half-elven)” (‘The Problem of ros’, HoMe XII: The Peoples of Middle-earth), but Tolkien does not explicitly say that he got to choose.