Moria naming error?

[Galin]

I think a possible approach might be: Frodo said he could not read the writing, but he remembered what Gandalf said (Moria), and Gandalf said Moria because that was the more familiar name.

This might serve as an explanation, as the name Moria need not be written on the actual door.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

i don't have the books on hand... but i thought that in the appendix (durin's folk or tale of years) it mentioned the name "moria" first being used after the balrog chased the dwarves out

Well in Appendix B, in my Norwegian-translated version, it says for the 2nd Age (I presume the translator has taken no liberties):

ca. 40 'Mange dverger forlater sine gamle byer i Ered Luin og drar til Moria, og det blir et folkerikt sted.'

[Galin]

In Appendix F it was said the name Moria was given without love, noting that the Eldar were not dwellers in underground fortresses by choice.

That still seems to make the 'choice' of Moria a bit odd for the doors I think, though again the name might not have actually appeared on the doors themselves.

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Galin

In Appendix F it was said the name Moria was given without love, noting that the Eldar were not dwellers in underground fortresses by choice.

That still seems to make the 'choice' of Moria a bit odd for the doors I think, though again the name might not have actually appeared on the doors themselves.

That would be my guess, as the letters were written by Celebrimbror, though carved by Narvi. The Dwarves may not, at that time, have regarded "The Black Pit" as an insult. Certainly "Moria, Moria, wonder of the Western world. Too deep we delved there and wakened the nameless fear," doesn't sound anything but elegiac. Gimli regards calling The Glittering Caves of Aglarond as being demeaned by just being dismissed as "Caves," but nowhere does he seem resentful of the name Moria.

[Coffeehouse]

I can easily see Narvi inscribing the name Moria on the door (and Gandalf did describe what he saw, first citing the name and then some undertext, which I can't remember what said..).

It is kind of in the nature of the Elves to regard a place like Moria as a Black Pit, and yeah, I agree that at the time this may not have been seen as an insult. After all, they (the Dwarves) probably were filled with joy that such a magical and beautifully inscripted door could grace the Western side, so if the Elves felt that Moria was a fitting name, why not?

[Jon S.]

Y'all are making a common mistake. You're translating Moria using one of the more common Middle Earth languages. In fact, certain Elves spoke Hebrew where Moria means, "My teacher is Illuvatar [God]."

[Noble Elf Lord]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

Y'all are making a common mistake. You're translating Moria using one of the more common Middle Earth languages. In fact, certain Elves spoke Hebrew where Moria means, "My teacher is Illuvatar [God]."

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

I can easily see Narvi inscribing the name Moria on the door (and Gandalf did describe what he saw, first citing the name and then some undertext, which I can't remember what said..).

But he might have only said Moria (instead of Hadhodrond), because Moria was well known to those he was speaking to.

[Coffeehouse]

True.. perhaps..

Frodo is the author of the latter part of the Red Book of Westmarch, and while it's possible that he 1) translated what Gandalf really said and wrote Moria instead for the readers, or 2) wrote down what Gandalf actually said, but which Gandalf 'translated' as he read the door's inscription, it also leaves open the possibility of 3) that Gandalf read out what was actually on the door.

In any case, the drawing in the Fellowship of the Ring does read 'Moria' does it not?

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

(...) In any case, the drawing in the Fellowship of the Ring does read 'Moria' does it not?

Yes it does, but it also reads 'Durin' and 'Narvi' -- these are not only not Sindarin, but moreover they would arguably be translations in any case, thus names that should not appear in writing on the actual doors. When referring to Balin's tomb Tolkien noted...

'The actual representation of the inscription has however landed in some absurdities (...) but the names Balin and Fundin are in such a context absurd.' But Tolkien noted this was basically: 'effective in its place: giving an idea of the style of the runes when incised with more care for a solemn purpose, and providing a glimpse of a strange tongue' JRRT, Of Dwarves And men

I think the illustration of the doors is also effective in its place, showing the Elvish script and design, but it need not be a representation of the actual doors in every detail, even with respect to what is written in the illustration.

[Jon S.]

Originally Posted by Noble Elf Lord

Here you go: "sense of humor."

[Varnafindë]

The illustration in the book could not be a photo of the door, as photography had not been invented. It may be Frodo's drawing, and as there was not time for him to do a sketch in such detail as to copy every sign written on the door, he must have made the drawing from memory after he came back.

He would then just have written the text as he "knew" it to be - not realising that he was drawing Gandalf's translation rather than the actual words on the door.

[Earniel]

That is a very clever point, Varna, I never thought about it. It certainly makes sense.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Varnafindë

The illustration in the book could not be a photo of the door, as photography had not been invented. It may be Frodo's drawing, and as there was not time for him to do a sketch in such detail as to copy every sign written on the door, he must have made the drawing from memory after he came back.

He would then just have written the text as he "knew" it to be - not realising that he was drawing Gandalf's translation rather than the actual words on the door.

Unless Frodo has photographic memory... which would make the drawing in the book a true depiction

[Willow Oran]

He could also have copied the image from an older document in Imladris.

[Noble Elf Lord]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

Here you go: "sense of humor."

'Righty.

What can I say... Varna is damn smart.

And Willow Oran, nice to see you again! Moothug!

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Willow Oran

He could also have copied the image from an older document in Imladris.

Interesting suggestion too. The original population of Imladris came straight out of Eregion. If there are any Elves able to reproduce the carvings on the door, then it would be these Elves. Frodo did spend some time in Rivendell before going back to the Shire, he would have had a good opportunity right there.

[Varnafindë]

I expect that those Elves also would be drawing the picture from memory, but they at least would remember exactly what was the wording on the doors.

In which case, we're back to square one

But thank you for your compliments on my smartness

[Galin]

And I think a modern translator is involved, explaining 'Durin' and 'Narvi' in the illustration. No Elves, nor Frodo, should have rendered these translations on anything from the general time period.

An ancient document that had 'Samwise' written on it, for example, should really have Banazîr, and it is the modern translator who has rendered Samwise. Unless JRRT is prepared to alter the notion concerning these names, but he does not seem to with respect to 'Balin' and 'Fundin' anyway.

[Attalus]

I don't think that we should regard Frodo as the narrator of any of the LotR, as the prologue obviously casts an omniscent narrator who has studied the Red Book thoroughly in order to tell its story to modern men. That narrator obviously had access to many other documents, viz. the Silmarillion.