Moria, Sauron, and the Balrog

[Forkbeard]

I'm sure that this has been discussed frequently, but I'll throw it out anyway.

When confronting Dain the Rider from Moria says that if Dain helps Sauron by finding the "hobbit thief" that Moria will be their's forever. Is Moria Sauron's to promise? That is, was the Balrog helping Sauron out? IF not would the Balrog have vacated the premises? Or do you think Sauron was simply lieing?

FB

[Fenir_LacDanan]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

I'm sure that this has been discussed frequently, but I'll throw it out anyway.

When confronting Dain the Rider from Moria says that if Dain helps Sauron by finding the "hobbit thief" that Moria will be their's forever. Is Moria Sauron's to promise? That is, was the Balrog helping Sauron out? IF not would the Balrog have vacated the premises? Or do you think Sauron was simply lieing?

FB

Well, Sauron was offering Moria, as you contend. Had the Dwarves wanted, say, Belegost, he would have offered them that as well. But Belegost was destroyed in the War of Wrath, so it cannot be given, and nor can Moria. The Balrog is not in Sauron's power. Sauron also offers the Dwarves back the three rings of the seven that he possesses.

Sauron the Deciever, is sometimes his name. He is a liar without shame, just like his former master, and the dwarves, just like the Eldar, were not decieved again.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

I'm sure that this has been discussed frequently, but I'll throw it out anyway.

When confronting Dain the Rider from Moria says that if Dain helps Sauron by finding the "hobbit thief" that Moria will be their's forever. Is Moria Sauron's to promise? That is, was the Balrog helping Sauron out? IF not would the Balrog have vacated the premises? Or do you think Sauron was simply lieing?

FB

he just a liar!

Seriously, though, Sauron would always use the power of desire for his own ends, eg: Dwarves would have desired moria, therefore, sauron offers it, men desire power, sauron offers it to easterlings and southrons, he just doesn't actually give it.

his power had been, and always would have been, the predatory nature towards anybody who has a desire for something.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

I'm sure that this has been discussed frequently, but I'll throw it out anyway.

When confronting Dain the Rider from Moria says that if Dain helps Sauron by finding the "hobbit thief" that Moria will be their's forever. Is Moria Sauron's to promise? That is, was the Balrog helping Sauron out? IF not would the Balrog have vacated the premises? Or do you think Sauron was simply lieing?

FB

Kind of lying, but in a way, kind of telling the truth. The (unknown )horseman tells them they would get those three rings and that Moria would be theirs forever. That COULD be as a 'final resting place'... as it was for Balin.

If they DID give news (leading to the 'capture and conviction' of one said hobbit), Sauron may have given them the three rings (for which he presumably had no use... they were possibly 'geared for dwarves') and sent them on their way to Moria, and they would have joined Balin & Company (as 'permanent' inhabitants ). The rings would only fuel their desire to return to Moria and delve its riches.

OR... Sauron may have given them neither rings NOR tried to make good on his promise.

Sauron may have been on good terms with the Balrog... they must have known each other a couple ages before. And I suspect Orcs could have traveled and brought news from one place to another... so that word of Balin's arrival there - and his eventual destruction - would have reached Sauron.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Some interesting concepts, Val, I believe that it could have been a mixture of things (covering myself from all angles )

[Attalus]

I'm with those that way that Sauron was just lied. Dain said, at the Council of Elrond,

We needed not the fell voice of the messenger to warn us that his words held both menace and deceit; for we knew already that the power that has re-entered Mordor has not changed, and ever it betrayed us of old.

Once they told where the Shire lay, and who Bilbo was, the cat would have been out of the bag, and how could the Dwarves enforce their contract?

[Wayfarer]

Given that Orcs from Mordor, Moria, and Isengard were working together to capture the Ring, I don't think it's impossible that Sauron could have been allies with the Balrog.

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

Given that Orcs from Mordor, Moria, and Isengard were working together to capture the Ring, I don't think it's impossible that Sauron could have been allies with the Balrog.

Oh, I entirely agree. Certainly they knew each other. As somebody says, it is difficult to know when those foul folk are cooperating or cheating each other.

[Beren3000]

I have nothing new to add to the discussion. Just a small comment:

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

Is Moria Sauron's to promise?

When Sauron regained his Ring it was supposedly a matter of time before all of ME fell to his reign. So technically, if he intended to keep his end of the bargain he could have.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Attalus

I'm with those that way that Sauron was just lied. Dain said, at the Council of Elrond, Once they told where the Shire lay, and who Bilbo was, the cat would have been out of the bag, and how could the Dwarves enforce their contract?

I'll pick on Attalus, simply because he's the last in the string as I start to write!

But I'm not with those that say Sauron just lied. I think that's too easy. Sauron after all went through a lot of trouble to regather the Dwarvish rings...is he lieing about giving them to Dain? If not, then how do we know he's lieing about Moria? If so, why go through the trouble of getting them back if not to try and bribe the dwarves? So I think just saying that Sauron just lied is just too easy.

Deceit by the way, doesn't mean to just lie. It means to decieve, a process that works best if there is some truth mixed in.

Which is why I think Val's suggestion may have a good deal of merit---he'd give them Moria all right...lots of little dwarf bones in the main hall forever! MWWAAAHHHHAAAAAAHHHAAAA

FB

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Maybe he would try again to enslave the Dain as he did to the Nazgûl.

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

I'll pick on Attalus, simply because he's the last in the string as I start to write!

But I'm not with those that say Sauron just lied. I think that's too easy. Sauron after all went through a lot of trouble to regather the Dwarvish rings...is he lieing about giving them to Dain? If not, then how do we know he's lieing about Moria? If so, why go through the trouble of getting them back if not to try and bribe the dwarves? So I think just saying that Sauron just lied is just too easy.

Deceit by the way, doesn't mean to just lie. It means to decieve, a process that works best if there is some truth mixed in.

Which is why I think Val's suggestion may have a good deal of merit---he'd give them Moria all right...lots of little dwarf bones in the main hall forever! MWWAAAHHHHAAAAAAHHHAAAA

FB

True, but to a tyrant like Sauron, losing anything of his realm would be difficult. I can see a scenario where the Dwarves betray Bilbo, and Sauron regains the Ring, and he uses the offer to give Moria back to feed the Dwarves to the Balrog, who would have attacked them whether Sauron willed it or no. Whether or not the Balrog knew much about Sauron, I don't think that there is much doubt that Sauron knew what Durin's Bane was.

[Fenir_LacDanan]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

But I'm not with those that say Sauron just lied. I think that's too easy. Sauron after all went through a lot of trouble to regather the Dwarvish rings...is he lieing about giving them to Dain? If not, then how do we know he's lieing about Moria? If so, why go through the trouble of getting them back if not to try and bribe the dwarves? So I think just saying that Sauron just lied is just too easy.
FB

Sauron is a liar, and he has lied before. The betrayal of Barahir by Gorlim springs to mind. Thats the reason the dwarves are unwilling to listen to him, because they know that Sauron wont give them Moria and the dwarvish rings he has.

And as you say, he went to a lot of trouble to get the rings off the dwarves in the first place. So why then would he turn around and give them back? He'll offer anything to get the One Ring, and when he gets that, what power in middle-earth is there that will make him keep his word?

Thats the reason the rings of power exist in the first place. Sauron didn't help in their making out of the goodness of his own heart, after all.

[Count Comfect]

Well, it is quite possible Sauron was willing to give those dwarf rings up for the Ruling Ring (after all, with that, who CARES about the dwarf rings). That part could be true, and the part about Moria (almost certainly, I think) false, and so be more effective deception with half true, half false.

I think the Moria part is likely false also because Sauron would have no reason to take the effort to eradicate the Balrog just for Dain's people... so he'll promise Moria, but not deliver because it would be a waste of the effort he's stretching towards Gondor.

I do like the twist in the Balin-style of Forever, though

[Pytt]

off course sauron knew the balrog was there.
i don't think the balrog would go out of its little hole, to serve sauron, and i think sauron thought it was ok, beacuse when the balrog was there, the dwarfs would have no chance to reclaim moria.
also, if the balrog had begun traveling over to Mordor, i think alot of people, eho don't should have seen it, actually have seen it.
but i think sauron could have forced the balrog out, if he thought he would have need for him.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by pytt

but i think sauron could have forced the balrog out, if he thought he would have need for him.

I think not.
If he neded a Northern passes to get to Eriador it means that Moria's passes was out of his reach. Barlog was just indifferent to all above the ground games, but he wouldn't like the disturbance and eventual occupation of his wast and quiet domain.

[Fenir_LacDanan]

Originally Posted by pytt

off course sauron knew the balrog was there.
i don't think the balrog would go out of its little hole, to serve sauron, and i think sauron thought it was ok, beacuse when the balrog was there, the dwarfs would have no chance to reclaim moria.
also, if the balrog had begun traveling over to Mordor, i think alot of people, eho don't should have seen it, actually have seen it.
but i think sauron could have forced the balrog out, if he thought he would have need for him.

I agree.

Sauron would have approved of an ancient evil denying the dwarves Moria, just as he approved of Shelob inhabiting the pass of Cirith Ungol. I forget the quote, but in LoTR it mentions that Sauron doesn't mind the loss of a few orcs now and again to allow such a great evil as Shelob to dwell near his borders. And could he find a better guard for that pass into Mordor?

And as to driving the balrog out of moria, he could should he wish, for Balrogs are not invincible, and Gandalf himself took him down alone, at the cost of his own life. Perhaps 100 000 orcs and 9 nazgul and a Dark Lord might have been more effective.

Though I could never see a reason for it to happen. Sauron could never find a better evil creature to drive the dwarves from Khazad Dum.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Fenir_LacDanan

Sauron is a liar, and he has lied before. The betrayal of Barahir by Gorlim springs to mind. Thats the reason the dwarves are unwilling to listen to him, because they know that Sauron wont give them Moria and the dwarvish rings he has.

I don't recall the specifics on this one....well, the dwarves aren't "unwilling to listen" else it seems to me that their answer would have an immediate "no thanks" rather than a "Let us think about it...." Distrustful of Sauron yes, unwilling, hmmmm.

And as you say, he went to a lot of trouble to get the rings off the dwarves in the first place. So why then would he turn around and give them back?

Bribery? Some measure of mastery is better than none...and of course he though he never completely mastered the dwarves who wore the rings, he at least could keep tabs on them easier.

He'll offer anything to get the One Ring, and when he gets that, what power in middle-earth is there that will make him keep his word?

Sure, that's one way of looking at it. But the think with Sauron is that he never quite breaks his word does he? I mean, he doesn't say X, and then does not-X. He says X, does X, but along with the X comes destructive Y and Z that he sort of forgot to mention. Hence deception, rather than out and out telling complete untruths....but then I might be overlooking somethings.

Thats the reason the rings of power exist in the first place. Sauron didn't help in their making out of the goodness of his own heart, after all.

Again, I agree, except that this doesn't make him a liar, but a deceiver. They are not quite the same thing....so what was the deception about Moria? Would he have simply left the Balrog there and then told the dwarves Moria was theirs? Or would he have moved the Balrog out and hatched some other plan?

FB

[Attalus]

As I posted above, I think he would have just left the Balrog there, and when the Dwarves showed up, the joke would have been on them. They didn't know, at least going by Gloin's speech at the Council and Gimli's reaction to the sight of the Balrog, that Durin's Bane was still there, or at least, might not be there. If Sauron called off his Orcs, the optimists would think (that is, the ones that thought the Darves were hemmed in a narrow place and yearned after Moria, those that hadn't gone with Balin).

[Fenir_LacDanan]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

I don't recall the specifics on this one

Sure, that's one way of looking at it. But the think with Sauron is that he never quite breaks his word does he? I mean, he doesn't say X, and then does not-X. He says X, does X, but along with the X comes destructive Y and Z that he sort of forgot to mention. Hence deception, rather than out and out telling complete untruths....but then I might be overlooking somethings.

Again, I agree, except that this doesn't make him a liar, but a deceiver. They are not quite the same thing....

FB

If your unfamiliar with the specifics, dear FB, then perhaps you shouldn't throw your hat into the ring?

Sauron has lied. The above "specific" is an example of this. Its in Silmarillion. He offers Gorlim the human his freedom and his wife's safe return, in return for the betrayal of Barahir's lair's location. Gorlim does this, and Sauron kills him on the spot.

Now how is that not a lie?

And in Akallabeth, also in Silmarillion, he fills Ar Pharazon, the human king of westernesse, with lies and deceptions. Yes, deception, and also lies.

Oh, and a deciever IS a liar, they are one and the same thing.

This is from dictionary.com :

Lie.
1. A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood.
2. Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression.

To decieve someone, you offer or tell them something that is untrue for a particular goal, and to offer something that is untrue, or to say something that is untrue, is a lie. But never mind