Tom Bombadil

[Lizra]

Tom's a good ole boy!

[azalea]

Since this thread was recent, I merged the new thread with it. (Hee hee, now when people click on Rad's first link, it'll just take them to the first page of this thread! )

Beren3000: don't forget the "search" button up on the right; that should help you find some old threads, too.

Another theory: Tom could have been made as a Father Time figure, with Goldberry as the Mother Nature.
Eru includes in the music a being who comes into existance with the beginning of the world, IOW at the beginning of Arda's "Time." Gandalf hints that if Sauron were to rule, it would eventually lead to Tom's "end."

(Don't forget Lewis had a Father Time in Narnia. I do seem to find the occasional similarity in Narnia and ME. It makes sense that being such good friends and fellow writers they might get ideas from one another, not to copy, but to adapt to their own worlds. Who knows?)

Someone above had asked about Treebeard being the oldest, too -- he is the oldest "living thing," which leads us to see that Tom is not a "living being," but a spiritual one of sorts.

EDIT: Of course after reading the quoted Letter on the previous page (which I've read several times in other threads, but forgotten about ), it pretty much renders my above theory obselete! Oh, well, it's always fun to speculate. (Leave it to the party poopers to actually QUOTE the AUTHOR to put a damper on it! )

[Rían]

I'm glad this thread was resurrected - I have to talk about Tom in my 2 chapters of LOTR for the LOTR discussion thread!

[Beren3000]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown

By the way, when did Fingolfin use singing as magic? You mean Finrod?

Sorry. My mistake.


Azalea: Thanks for your speculation. But I find that theories of Bombadil as Father Time or the Spirit of the Earth (and it's not the first time I hear such theories) aren't exactly Tolkien's style. I would rather say that he was a Maia servant under Aule than the spirit of the Earth, because that fits Tolkien's style more.
Maybe I'm being close-minded but I just can't see it otherwise

[azalea]

Well, I've also read theories that Tom was Aule and Goldberry was Yavanna (the guy made some convincing arguments); that Tom represented the reader or the author; and then the one that was in one of the threads that RTB linked to that Tom was part of the music or something.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Originally posted by azalea

Someone above had asked about Treebeard being the oldest, too -- he is the oldest "living thing," which leads us to see that Tom is not a "living being," but a spiritual one of sorts.

well if the ents rae the eldest
elves are the eldar
and tom is oldest and fatherless
maybe they are all the same anyway!! lol

maybe he [tom] is the offspring of an ent and a dwarf

[Attalus]

Tolkien also said in the Letters that Tom was an enigma and meant to remain so. He went on that every fantasy needs something beyond explanation.

[Valandil]

Even as 'enigma' - I think Tom Bombadil fits as a Maia. While he is unlike other Maia in some ways (Melian, Sauron, Balrog, Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast) - just look how much variety exists among those other Maiar we know of!

To me, he could have been a Maia who so fully invested himself in his work in his one little corner of Middle-earth, that he wouldn't leave it. This could have been acceptable to the Valar because they could see that he retained his goodness... and perhaps felt that he was fulfilling his role better than they were (by so investing himself in the creation and beautification of Middle-earth).

I believe I've read the argument mentioned by Rian in the LOTR Ch 7 & 8 Discussion (that Tom is Aule and Goldberry is Yavanna) - but it doesn't hold water with me. If anything, I could see Tom more as a Maia of Yavanna - and Goldberry as a Maia of Ulmo (and/or daughter of a Maia of Ulmo).

Some couldn't see how Tom could be a Maia and not be affected by The Ring... but again, Maiar are widely different from one another... and his earliest choices, of investing himself in his work on Middle-earth, could have insulated him from an attraction to the Ring. Certainly the 'oath of poverty' in regard to power, mentioned by Tolkien, would aid him in doing so... whoever or whatever he was.

All in all, I sometimes think he was primarily included in this story because he was an old touchstone in Tolkien family lore... wasn't he an old doll they found somewhere? I suspect it was easy to include him when Tolkien envisioned this story as a sequel to 'The Hobbit' - and that he never had the heart to write him out of it.

And, btw... it has just recently struck me how his name ends in '...dil' - the Quenya ending meaning, roughly, "friend (of)" - just as 'Elendil' = 'Elf-friend' and 'Valandil' = 'Vala-friend', etc. Does anyone know if there's a Quenya root or roots that are anything like 'Bomb' or 'Bomban' or anything?

Also interesting is that 'Tom Bombadil' is the name he now gives for himself, but that Elrond, while recognizing the character, didn't seem to know the name but gives three others: one each given him by Elves, Northern Men and Dwarves.

I don't think it's necessary to try to resolve who is older of Elves, Ents and Tom Bombadil. What we hear of the ages of Ents and TB from the Elves are from their perspective. When they came to those parts... they found them already there. The Elves wouldn't know whether one or the other was oldest. In one sentence though, Tom seems to place himself as having seen things from the beginning. That to me indicates that he precedes both Elf and Ent.

Plus, there's the singing... definite tie-in with the Ainur... and the Maiar were more minor Ainur, correct?

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

good thoughts there, val,

i personally think he is more in
line with some form of earth-spirit,
or such like

interesting thoughts here: The Riddle of Tom Bombadil

[Ragnarok]

Originally posted by Panther2112
Just wanted some feedback on the following (men of the west are in my opinion the rangers such as Strider):

Men of the West refers to The Númenoreans and their descendants.

[Radagast The Brown]

That's very interesting Valandil. I believe he's a Maia too.

I think he was more powerful than the Istari, and therefore could resist the Ring. The Istari, afterall, had to 'wear' a body and were somehow wickened from it. They could forget what they believed in, and get off the right track like Elves and Men. And so, perhaps they were affected by the Ring, while the Maiarf in their regular form won't be.

I don't think he's an Earth Spirit, there is no indication about spirits in Arda at all. And why, then, wasn't the spirit affected by the Ring?
I read about Bombadil in the site you brought here... and still, it doesn't look logical to me.

[Ossë]

I read the argument about tom being aule, and its the theory i go for myself. Its a beautiful theory and i was shocked when i first read it. One of the valar present all along! And yet i was fooled as easily as the characters in the book. When i read the article on the website it had a small bit about tolkiens thoughts on tom. Tolkien obviously created tom to be an enigma. But in the article i believe it indicated that tolkien himself knew what or who tom was. Tom wasn't a mystery to tolkien himself. I think this also suggests the aule theory. I mean lets think about it for a moment. We have a character that is very similar to aule. Ok so we just got a guy like aule. But then this guys wife just happens to be like aule's wife. Strange that don't you think? So if this guy is Aule why doen't he stand up to the darklord. Well of course he wouldn't. He wouldn' display power like that in such an unsubtle fashion, what one of the valar did in that period of time? Maybe he already knew what the future held, he knew the ring would end up in the fire. he was present at the original song, and may have heard that very bit. Most of you have probably read this article already. If not you really should, its very well written.

http://www.cas.unt.edu/~hargrove/bombadil.html

"Tom approaches the ring critically, almost with scorn. While all others refer to the ring as precious in a reverent sense, Tom's use of the word, "Show me the precious ring" (Rings, 1:144), suggests irony or doubt about its value. Since the lack of desire to possess or own was extremely rare among the Valar and the beings of Middle-earth, no over Vala is said to exhibit this moral trait, it seems reasonable to assume that Tom and Aule are the same person.

It is also important to note the tremendous power and control that Tom has over the ring. He is, first of all, able to overcome its normal effects. When he puts it on his finger, he does not become invisible. When Frodo puts it on his finger, Tom is still able to see Frodo: he is "not as blind as that yet" (Ibid.). Second, Tom is able with ease to use the ring in ways that were not intended by its maker, for he is able to make the ring itself disappear. (It is possible that Sauron himself might be unable to do this, for the ring embodied a great part of Sauron's own power, drained from him during its making.) Such power over the ring, displayed almost as a parlor trick, I submit, cannot be accounted for by classifying Tom Bombadil as an anomalous nature spirit. The ability to dominate the ring suggests a Vala; the ease with which it is dominated suggests the ultimate maker of all things in Middle-earth, Aule the Smith, of whom both Sauron and Saruman were mere servants in the beginning before time. "

[Radagast The Brown]

Osse - let's say he is a Vala, although I disagree; If he's a Vala - what makes you think he's Aule, and not Orome for example? Or even Yavanna?
And who's Goldberry by your theory?

[Elanor the Fair]

Tom is certainly an enigma - as Tolkien intended!! There are many speculations about Tom, all with their supporting evidence and relative merits. I don't think we will ever reach consensus on his origins. I, myself, like to keep an open mind, while also considering the viewpoints of others. Some aspects of argument, however, need to be considered.

Osse states that Tom has power over the ring. Does he have power over the ring or, rather, does the ring have no power over Tom?

Radagast states that Tom cannot be an Earth Spirit because the ring has no power over him. Who does the ring have power over?? Men, Elves, Dwarves, the Istari, Hobbits??? What do all these have in common?? Some of these are more susceptible to the rings powers that others.

Is there evidence that the ring has power over Orcs??

What else does/would the ring have power over?? Would it have power over an Ent, one of the great eagles, or any other animal??

It seems ridiculous to suggest that the ring would have power over a thing such as a tree - even Old Man Willow.

So what does this suggest in relation to Tom?? Either he is so powerful that he is unaffected by the ring or that he fits into one of the categories of living things that is unaffected by the ring - which does not rule out Tom being an Earth-spirit or Elemental.

If he is a Maia, would that explain the ring having no effect upon him - Gandalf and Saruman felt the pull of the ring. What would happen to them if they put it on? Sauron could rule the world with the ring - could Tom?? When Tom put on the ring, what happened?? - Nothing?? Did Sauron or the Nazgul even feel it at that point??

I, personally lean toward sthe theory that Tom in an Elemental or Earth-Spirit, however, as can be seen, there are so many arguements and questions, I don't think I will ever be fully convinced!!

[Ossë]

Radagast

If you click the link in the middle of my last post that will take you to the article where i read the theory about aule. The theory wasn't mine, but i do agree with it. Its a pretty well written artcle. The writting in my last post after the link is in fact a quote from the article. Have a read see what you think

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Ossë
Radagast

If you click the link in the middle of my last post that will take you to the article where i read the theory about aule. The theory wasn't mine, but i do agree with it. Its a pretty well written artcle. The writting in my last post after the link is in fact a quote from the article. Have a read see what you think

I did click on it, and was quite panicked from the length. I'm not native English Speaker, it'd take me years to finish reading it all. Can you sum it up for me though?

[Ossë]

I cut and paste a few bits from the article for ya radagast.

Yavanna
-----------

When we first meet Goldberry, she is clad in green: "her gown was green, green as young reeds, shot with silver like beads of dew" (Rings, p. 172). When Tom officially introduces Goldberry, he says, "Here's my Goldberry clothed all in silver-green. . . ." When she says goodbye to the Hobbits, she is once again clad in green and Frodo in calling for her refers specifically to this color when he starts to look for her: "My fair lady, clad all in green!" (p. 187). This characterization of Goldberry's customary dress supports that hypothesis that she is Yavanna.

To be sure, when we first meet her, her feet are also surrounded by water, seemingly supporting the water nymph story. This circumstance, however, is not inconsistent with her tree image, which, as just noted, involved having her feet or roots in "the waters of Ulmo."

As the farewell continues, moreover, a description analogous to the tree description is given:

There on the hill-brow she stood beckoning to them: her hair was flying loose, and as it caught the sun it shone and shimmered. A light like the glint of water on dewy grass flashed under her feet as she danced."

Although still in human form, her flying hair hints at "the winds of Manwe" and the reflection of the sun from her hair suggests that she is "crowned with the Sun." The "glint of water on dewy grass" suggests the spilling of the golden dew on the earth as well as "the waters of Ulmo." When the Hobbits last see Goldberry, she is much more like a plant: "they saw Goldberry now small and slender like s sunlit flower against the sky: she was standing still watching them, and her hands were stretched out towards them." In this case, she is probably more flower than tree because Hobbits in general like flowers and are afraid of trees. The "sunlit" image is strikingly similar to Yavanna's primary nonhuman appearance.


Aule
-----

Just as Goldberry is very similar to Yavanna, Aule the Smith, shares many common characteristics with Tom and this identification helps explain some of the events that occur in Tom's house - especially his control over the ring without any fear or temptation. Aule was the maker of all the substances of the earth: minerals, gems, and metals. During the creation of Middle-earth he was involved in nearly every aspect of its making. He prepared the sea beds to receive the waters of the ocean and prepared the land for plants and animals. As the Maker he developed and taught all arts, crafts, and skills. Of all the Valar, he had the greatest interest in the Children of Iluvatar. So impatient was he to see them that he made the Dwarves. According to the "Valaquenta" in the Silmarillion (p. 27), although Aule and Melkor were most like of all the Valar in thought and power, their attitudes toward the products of their labor and the labor of others were significantly different. While Melkor carefully guarded his works for himself and destroyed the works of others out of jealousy, Aule delighted in making, not possessing, and "he did not envy the works of others, but sought and gave counsel." It was, in fact, Aule's lack of possessiveness and his willingness to submit his work to the will of Iluvatar that saved the Dwarves from destruction and made it possible for them to receive the gift of free will from Iluvatar.

When one carefully considers the special moral characteristics of Aule, the similarities to Tom are most striking and revealing. Like Aule, Tom is not possessive. Although his power to dominate and control is always stressed - he is the master - he does not interfere with other beings except when they directly interfere with him. Although he has the power to possess whatever he may desire, he does not chose to possess or own the forest. As Goldberry explains, the animals, plants, and natural objects of the forest are all allowed to belong to themselves. This distain for ownership or possession is the reason why Tom is able to handle the ring without fear. Ultimately, all other powerful beings encountered in the trilogy, unless they are already fallen, are afraid to touch the ring lest the desire to possess it should turn them to evil. Since Tom does not want to own or possess anything, it has no power over him. We simply see his interest, curiosity, and delight as he studies the craftmanship involved in its making. Indeed, Tom approaches the ring critically, almost with scorn. While all others refer to the ring as precious in a reverent sense, Tom's use of the word, "Show me the precious ring" (Rings, 1:144), suggests irony or doubt about its value. Since the lack of desire to possess or own was extremely rare among the Valar and the beings of Middle-earth, no over Vala is said to exhibit this moral trait, it seems reasonable to assume that Tom and Aule are the same person.

Other interesting bits
---------------------------

Finally, there is Tom's singing. Tom's inability to separate song from his other activities, speaking, walking, working, suggests that it is very fundamental to his being in a profound way that distinguishes him from all other beings encountered in the trilogy. The wizards, for example, who are Maiar, chant (in the modern sense of the word) rather than sing, and never unconsciously. This continuous singing may be an indication of Tom's high status. The world was, after all, brought into existence by a group of singers, the Holy Ones, some of whom became Valar. Second, Tom's basic song is structurally related to Legolas' "Song of the Sea" (Rings, 3:234-35), suggesting the possibility that Tom's is a corruption of an original piece of music from the Uttermost West common to both. Third, Tom's songs, although seemingly comic and nonsensical, have power in them to control individual elements and things in the forest. When told that Old Man Willow is the cause of the Hobbits' problems, Tom replies, "that can soon be mended. I know the tune for him" (Ibid., 1:131), which I suggest means something like, 'don't worry. I have the plans for that thing and can fix it right away." This is the kind of knowledge that a Vala, who sang the Music, would likely have, and singing would be the natural way to apply it.

If we take Tom's remark quite literally that he "was here before the river and the trees. . .the first raindrop and the first acorn" (Rings, 1:142), he is saying either that he was in Middle-earth when the Valar arrived or that he arrived as one of the Valar. His remark that "he knew the dark under ths stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from the Outside" refers to the time before Morgoth, the original Dark Lord, had officially turned renegade - the time when the "old" or original stars were made. Since the world was incomplete at that time and nothing lived on the earth except the Valar, it is hard to believe that Tom is anything but a Vala.

[Radagast The Brown]

I see. Thanks Osse.

[jonny5]

I find Tom Bombadil to be a very fascinating charecter indeed. I was under the impression that he was in a class rather of his own... that he didn't fit into the usual Human, Dwarf, Hobbit sort of thing. I thought that Tolkien put him in sort of as a quirk, not as a particular plot element. Of course, this is all just my little sillyheaded theory.

[Valandil]

I read that theory about Aule some time ago and never really bought into it. Last night I found a nice wrench to throw into it. Unless there was a shuttle back-and-forth, Aule is placed in Valinor in the first third of the Third Age. When the Istari were to be chosen as emissaries, there were to be three at first - and it says that Aule picked Saruman (whatever his earlier name was - Curomo or something?) to go. So - unless Tom Bombadil took a 'time-out' from his home in the Old Forest to go back and see that Curomo got that vaunted appointment... I just don't think so.

Besides, I never conceived of Bombadil with the earth / stone / metals connection I make with Aule. That's why I think he's more likely a Maia of Yavanna - and Goldberry, rather than Yavanna herself, more likely a Maia of Ulmo. I don't think being a Maia necessitates that the One Ring be a temptation to them (or him, in particular). Perhaps more than any other, Tom Bombadil seems to have mastered himself... and THAT is why the Ring had no mastery over him, I believe.