Writing using Tengwar characters - II

[Earniel]

I just realised this was in General Messages, so moving this thread to the Middle-earth forum, and merging it in the other, active thread.

[Rían]

*bump*

[Rían]

I've started writing in Tengwar again, so I thought I'd bump this thread

It's been a few years since I've written in Tengwar (I write in the English language with the Tengwar character set) and I thought it would take a while to get back up to speed, but I was very surprised (and pleased) at how fast it came back.

Anyone else around here writing in Tengwar?

[Alcuin]

Yes. I use Tengwar Annatar and Tengwar Parmaite (here or here) for computer.

Galin is rather expert on Tengwar and Sindarin.

[tolkienfan]

I took a religion class in college where most of the syllabus was made up of works by Tolkien (yes, it was an awesome class ) For extra credit, we could enter a Tolkien art contest. Only problem is, I don't have an artistic bone in my body. So I took a poem about the stars that I'd written in Quenya, and copied it in Tengwar onto some black paper with a silver pen. I ended up being called to the front of the class to read the poem in elvish, along with the translation. Everyone clapped and I got the "people's choice award" for my submission! First time I'd ever entered an art contest, much less won anything! And I didn't even have to do anything that involved actual skill

[Galin]

Thanks for the confidence Alcuin! But that said, I am far from an expert on the languages or the writing systems... that adjective belongs to folks like those who publish Vinyar Tengwar, for example. What I do is:

A) if I have time (and feel inclined to)... I try to answer the easier questions or requests (especially if short)

And importantly...

B) I try to find Tolkien made examples to back up something I say...

... although this can be a bit tricky for me in the field of linguistics since "one does not know what one does not know".

[Earniel]

Still pretty much a angerthas girl, the vowel-thing in Tengwar keeps tripping me up. I appreciate its beauty but not its practicality.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by tolkienfan

I took a religion class in college where most of the syllabus was made up of works by Tolkien (yes, it was an awesome class ) For extra credit, we could enter a Tolkien art contest. Only problem is, I don't have an artistic bone in my body. So I took a poem about the stars that I'd written in Quenya, and copied it in Tengwar onto some black paper with a silver pen. I ended up being called to the front of the class to read the poem in elvish, along with the translation. Everyone clapped and I got the "people's choice award" for my submission! First time I'd ever entered an art contest, much less won anything! And I didn't even have to do anything that involved actual skill

no actual skill? and you wrote a poem in Quenya and wrote it down using the Tengwar letters? Sounds like skill to me Can you post it here?

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Still pretty much a angerthas girl, the vowel-thing in Tengwar keeps tripping me up. I appreciate its beauty but not its practicality.

Oh, I love the vowel marks!! For me, it's fun because it's so different from English writing.

Samples please?

Samples from everyone, please! so fun to see! I guess I need to dust off my photo bucket account; is that the best way, guys?

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Oh, I love the vowel marks!! For me, it's fun because it's so different from English writing.

Fun but complicated. It isn't always evident when something is in Quenya mode or Sindarin mode and that makes for very slow reading. Especially if it's in another language too. (Not that I'm anywhere near speed-reading in angerthas, mind.)

Usually I just resort to carrier signs at the right spot of a vowel in our script, but somehow that doesn't feel like how Tolkien intended it...

Samples from everyone, please! so fun to see! I guess I need to dust off my photo bucket account; is that the best way, guys?

Lead by example?

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Still pretty much a angerthas girl, the vowel-thing in Tengwar keeps tripping me up. I appreciate its beauty but not its practicality.

Hmm, maybe the Mode of Beleriand, attested for writing in Sindarin, is for you?

This "antique S[indarin] mode" [DTS 58] is a mode of quanta sarme ("full writing"), meaning that both consonants and vowels are written with tengwar. In this it followed the quanta sarme which Feanor created "for the Loremasters" to represent Quenya. It is said that for languages such as Sindarin, "the diacritic method of indicating vowels was inconvenient"

Source, see below

Although there are still some uses for diacritics if I recall correctly, generally speaking there should be far less tripping. There is also (seemingly) a "general mode" which allows more freedom when using the diacritical marks.

"Vowels are in the General Use primarily represented by ómatehtar, vowel-marks. As demonstrated in DTS 58 [Tolkien's "Howlett Rivendell Inscriptions"], vowel-marks may in this mode be placed either above the following or the preceding consonant tengwa."

http://at.mansbjorkman.net/teng_general.htm

I assume as long as you are consistent within a given text, anyway.

[tolkienfan]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

no actual skill? and you wrote a poem in Quenya and wrote it down using the Tengwar letters? Sounds like skill to me Can you post it here?

Haha I guess I meant artistic skill Can I post it? I tried to upload a picture as an attachment but got the message "upload failed". Nerdanel always has such nice pictures so it must be possible... I'd be happy to post if someone can give me some assistance!

[Rían]

me too, I just don't know how ... do you use photo bucket, people-that-know-how?

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Galin

Hmm, maybe the Mode of Beleriand, attested for writing in Sindarin, is for you?

I do prefer the Sindarin mode, but when reading it isn't always evident in which mode it was written, you have to decypher as you go along.

Originally Posted by tolkienfan

Haha I guess I meant artistic skill Can I post it? I tried to upload a picture as an attachment but got the message "upload failed". Nerdanel always has such nice pictures so it must be possible... I'd be happy to post if someone can give me some assistance!

Yes, sorry, uploading attachments is currently broken. We still need to look into it.

Putting it in a photobucket account or linking to it, like Nerdanel did for her gorgeous photos should still work. Linking, mind, not using the IMG-code since that's only enabled in GM. Hell, lemme test just to be sure...

some old but at least on topic imagery

Yes, that seem to work.

(If people have or want a photobucket and want a quick walkthrough, feel free to PM me and I can give some very basic help. At your own peril. Not an expert by a long shot.)

[tolkienfan]

http://i1026.photobucket.com/albums/...psd9thy76m.jpg

[Galin]

I think it's great that you employed words that are poetic and Tolkienian!

I haven't really looked at all the words chosen, but about the writing, I hate to say it (and stating again that I'm no expert) but I don't agree with three out of your first four words for example, your versions of ninque ar laure cala as written in the Elvish script.

I agree with ar. It is more often the practice in Quenya to write the vowels above the preceding consonant (if available, which there is not one available in ar of course, in any case), but I guess if you are consistent you can say the whole text is in the general mode, so I'll ignore vowel placement.



In the following, the numbered chart is the one in the Appendices to the book The Return of the King.

ninque

I would suggest that ninque be written with the tengwa (letter) called unque (number 16 in the chart), which is used for nqu (nkw).

You have quesse rather, and a letter after it, but all you need is the one Elvish letter for -nqu-, as Tolkien himself uses in the word enquantuva.

By the way, at least one person thinks Tolkien should not have used this letter for enquantuva: Vincente Velasco states: "The phoneme nqu (nkw) is written with the tengwa unque. While this may be correct, it is my opinion that it should be written with a númen and a quesse. The reason for this is in order for the reader to be aware that enquantuva is a compound of en- "re-, again" and quantuva, the future tense form of quanta- "fill". The use of two tengwar instead of one preserves this construction,..."

But even if so for the word "en-quantuva", for ninque I would use unque.

ar

As I said, I agree. Although Tolkien himself writes the vowel over a carrier and followed it with the consonant -- but again that is merely choice of vowel placement. The suggestion to use preceding consonant (if available) for writing Quenya is seemingly due to the fact that a lot of Quenya words end in a vowel.

laure

Au is a diphthong in Quenya and is written with the vowel sign for a above the tengwa úre (number 36 in the chart). Tolkien wrote laurie this way, attested in his tengwar version of Galadriel's Namárie, published by him in The Road Goes Ever On in the 1960s.

Also, for -r- in laurie Tolkien uses the letter rómen (in the Quenya word ar the r sound ends the word, so there I agree with your use of óre).

The website Amanye Tenceli explains that with one exception, in the Namárie manuscripts óre represents r before consonants and word-finally, while rómen is used before vowels, and as I say, rómen is used between the diphthong -au- and the vowel i in the word laurie -- technically the vowel i is above the preceding consonant in Tolkien's script of course, even though I use "between" to describe it here.


cala

You seem to use quesse for both qu (kw) and c (k). But for c I suggest the tengwa calma (number 3 in the chart). I would employ quesse (number 4) for -qu- (just the one Elvish letter). And generally speaking, unque for nqu, as I noted above.

Well, I'll stop here. I don't really have time to go through it all (nor do I want to annoy you any further if I disagree with anything else) but my general advice is to follow Tolkien whenever possible, which I think I have here, about this much anyway...

... unless JRRT makes a mistake

And he actually makes one when writing in Elvish in the documentary narrated by Judi Dench... and catches himself!

[tolkienfan]

Galin - thanks for the feedback! I'm always interested to learn more about quenya, tengwar, and really anything to do with middle earth

As I said, I made this when I was in college. All my books were at home, so I was working from memory. I'm not at all surprised that I forgot some of the more unique letters and that it's generally riddled with mistakes

Also, I was (and am) much more concerned with the actual quenya. The poem is actually an excerpt from a libretto that I wrote for a 3-part symphony based on the Ainulindale. I tried very hard to write what I thought Tolkien might have written, so I'm glad you thought I got close!

[Alcuin]

Tolkien himself made mistakes writing Elvish! Take it from him in this part of his interview from the 1968 BBC series In Their Own Words British Authors.

[Galin]

Yes I think that's the same footage (Tolkien writing in Elvish and saying he's made a mistake) used for the special narrated by Judi Dench.

Thanks Alcuin!

Tolkienfan -- working from memory there? In that case wow! For myself I had totally forgotten about unque for the moment, for example...

... until I accidentally tripped over Mr. Velasco's disagreement with Tolkien