Glamdring, Foe-hammer - Page 2

12-27-2000, 02:00 AM

Sorry, but having Gandalf send the sword back to Elrond while he travels through Mirkwood is pretty far-fetched in my view.

It is possible to infer too much from a text which does not address every point the readers can think of. Tolkien's chief concern was getting the Ringbearer to Mordor, not tracking the movements of specific weapons.

12-27-2000, 02:11 PM

Oh now come on!

I think it should be renamed, "The Glamdring Chronicles"

slippolives · 12-06-2010, 09:12 PM

Deleting

slippolives · 12-06-2010, 09:16 PM

Gandalf had his wizards staff, the elven ring Narya, and the powerful elven sword Glamdring. Say even if he had all of these items on him when he visited Saruman, it may not have been easy, but I believe with some planning by Saruman, Gandalf still could be trapped in Orthanc.

For one thing it was an ambush, Gandalf had no idea he would be walking into a trap.

And Saruman had weapons and magic items of his own, his own staff, a great deal of knowledge of the rings of power, his voice, a palantir, and the most powerful of all I think being the tower of Orthanc itself.

Remember that Orthanc was constructed by the Numenoreans, skilled at making fortresses and enchanted structures (think Amon Hen). These were the people that subdued Sauron (think Ar-Pharazon), Isildur actually laid a curse on the Men of the White Mountains until they fullfilled their oath 3 millenium later! So the ancient Numenorean men were powerful in many ways, and the outpost of Isengard and the tower of Orthanc is one of the representations of that power. So possibly the tower gives a type of control or strength to the one that holds the keys, and if that one happens to be a powerful maiar like Saruman, then he would be very powerful indeed, possibly giving him control of others when inside the tower.

Remember Gandalf was trapped inside the actual tower, this was Sarumans realm, outside the tower things may have been different between the two, but inside Saruman was master and everything was in his favor. All Sarumans plans and powers were concentrated into that ancient structure, giving Saruman a tremendous advantage.

Another would be rings, there were many rings made by the elves of Eregion, a great many lesser rings were forged as "essays in the craft", of unknown but far lesser powers than the Great Rings. Saruman, a studier of rings, was not given one of the Great Rings, but he may have come up with some of the lesser. It makes sense since he had a great knowledge of ring-lore, he would at least have in his possession some of these rings. So with them he could increase his power as well.

He may have used the palantir in some way to get to Gandalf as well, seeing his whereabouts, seeing what he was bringing with him to Orthanc, and getting a strategy together to trap Gandalf in the tower.

Remember also he is master of the order of the Istari and it just may be that he could gain control of Gandalf by way of presence and authority which could have dominated Gandalf's will. That along with the power of Sarumans voice may have even made Gandalfs imprisonment a battle-free negotiation.

So Gandalf being ordered to the top of Orthanc by the combination of the power of Othanc, the power of Sarumans voice, use of the palantir, the fact that Gandalf was caught at unawares, the fact that Saruman was master of the order they belonged to, an understanding of Gandalf's ring, and the powers of Saruman's own rings all made it possible for Gandalf to be ensnared even when carrying a sword like Glamdring.

The Gaffer · 12-07-2010, 07:16 AM

Agree. LOTR is pre-Warcraft, pre-Gygax even, so Tolkien wasn't as concerned about the mechanics of "magic items". The key thing is to do with the power and authority that was Saruman's.

IIRC, Saruman also calls himself "ring-maker". Gandalf mentions it in his account of their first confrontation, and that he had a ring on his finger. I don't think he got married...

Note also that it takes an agent of Manwe to free Gandalf from his imprisonment.

thekingofgondor · 03-30-2011, 11:53 PM

I've always been under the impression that neither Gandalf nor Saruman had any intention of combating the other, knowing full well that releasing the other from their mortal shell could prove disastrous, as they would likely be able to confer with the Valar what had occurred (if Gandalf had, say, slain Saruman with Glamdring, as Saruman's treachery was not yet widely known, it would have looked like Gandalf had gone rogue and Saruman would have been sent back with the orders to break Gandalf's staff and cast him from the order, much like Gandalf ultimately did after his return) and return with the authority to strip the other of their power in Middle-earth. So Tolkien probably didn't bother mentioning what weapons Gandalf may or may not have carried as it was a moot point.

12-27-2000, 02:00 AM	#21
Michael Martinez Guest Posts: n/a	Re: I think the sword may have been kept at Rivendell. Sorry, but having Gandalf send the sword back to Elrond while he travels through Mirkwood is pretty far-fetched in my view. It is possible to infer too much from a text which does not address every point the readers can think of. Tolkien's chief concern was getting the Ringbearer to Mordor, not tracking the movements of specific weapons.

12-27-2000, 02:11 PM	#22
Gilthalion Guest Posts: n/a	Re: I think the sword may have been kept at Rivendell. Oh now come on! I think it should be renamed, "The Glamdring Chronicles"

12-06-2010, 09:12 PM	#23
slippolives Sapling Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 9	Deleting Last edited by slippolives : 12-06-2010 at 09:21 PM. Reason: Deleting

12-06-2010, 09:16 PM	#24
slippolives Sapling Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 9	Gandalf had his wizards staff, the elven ring Narya, and the powerful elven sword Glamdring. Say even if he had all of these items on him when he visited Saruman, it may not have been easy, but I believe with some planning by Saruman, Gandalf still could be trapped in Orthanc. For one thing it was an ambush, Gandalf had no idea he would be walking into a trap. And Saruman had weapons and magic items of his own, his own staff, a great deal of knowledge of the rings of power, his voice, a palantir, and the most powerful of all I think being the tower of Orthanc itself. Remember that Orthanc was constructed by the Numenoreans, skilled at making fortresses and enchanted structures (think Amon Hen). These were the people that subdued Sauron (think Ar-Pharazon), Isildur actually laid a curse on the Men of the White Mountains until they fullfilled their oath 3 millenium later! So the ancient Numenorean men were powerful in many ways, and the outpost of Isengard and the tower of Orthanc is one of the representations of that power. So possibly the tower gives a type of control or strength to the one that holds the keys, and if that one happens to be a powerful maiar like Saruman, then he would be very powerful indeed, possibly giving him control of others when inside the tower. Remember Gandalf was trapped inside the actual tower, this was Sarumans realm, outside the tower things may have been different between the two, but inside Saruman was master and everything was in his favor. All Sarumans plans and powers were concentrated into that ancient structure, giving Saruman a tremendous advantage. Another would be rings, there were many rings made by the elves of Eregion, a great many lesser rings were forged as "essays in the craft", of unknown but far lesser powers than the Great Rings. Saruman, a studier of rings, was not given one of the Great Rings, but he may have come up with some of the lesser. It makes sense since he had a great knowledge of ring-lore, he would at least have in his possession some of these rings. So with them he could increase his power as well. He may have used the palantir in some way to get to Gandalf as well, seeing his whereabouts, seeing what he was bringing with him to Orthanc, and getting a strategy together to trap Gandalf in the tower. Remember also he is master of the order of the Istari and it just may be that he could gain control of Gandalf by way of presence and authority which could have dominated Gandalf's will. That along with the power of Sarumans voice may have even made Gandalfs imprisonment a battle-free negotiation. So Gandalf being ordered to the top of Orthanc by the combination of the power of Othanc, the power of Sarumans voice, use of the palantir, the fact that Gandalf was caught at unawares, the fact that Saruman was master of the order they belonged to, an understanding of Gandalf's ring, and the powers of Saruman's own rings all made it possible for Gandalf to be ensnared even when carrying a sword like Glamdring. Last edited by slippolives : 12-06-2010 at 10:46 PM.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
war hammer	orithil	General Messages	2	10-27-2006 11:40 PM
about glamdring...	Orpheus	Lord of the Rings Movies	7	03-03-2003 02:17 AM
Glamdring in TTT	Millane	Lord of the Rings Movies	12	10-20-2002 10:55 AM
How big is Morgoth	easygreen	The Silmarillion	20	07-19-2001 08:27 PM
Glass Hammer does Arwen in a music video	Michael Martinez	Lord of the Rings Movies	4	04-14-2000 04:31 PM

12-07-2010, 07:16 AM	#25
The Gaffer Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: In me taters Posts: 3,288	Agree. LOTR is pre-Warcraft, pre-Gygax even, so Tolkien wasn't as concerned about the mechanics of "magic items". The key thing is to do with the power and authority that was Saruman's. IIRC, Saruman also calls himself "ring-maker". Gandalf mentions it in his account of their first confrontation, and that he had a ring on his finger. I don't think he got married... Note also that it takes an agent of Manwe to free Gandalf from his imprisonment.

03-30-2011, 11:53 PM	#26
thekingofgondor Sapling Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: The Newest of Jersey Posts: 11	I've always been under the impression that neither Gandalf nor Saruman had any intention of combating the other, knowing full well that releasing the other from their mortal shell could prove disastrous, as they would likely be able to confer with the Valar what had occurred (if Gandalf had, say, slain Saruman with Glamdring, as Saruman's treachery was not yet widely known, it would have looked like Gandalf had gone rogue and Saruman would have been sent back with the orders to break Gandalf's staff and cast him from the order, much like Gandalf ultimately did after his return) and return with the authority to strip the other of their power in Middle-earth. So Tolkien probably didn't bother mentioning what weapons Gandalf may or may not have carried as it was a moot point.