Homeschooling is banned in California

[Curufin]

Just my two cents - I've never been a fan of homeschooling. Don't really want to get into the reasons why right now, but I've always thought of it as a bad thing.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Curufin

Just my two cents - I've never been a fan of homeschooling. Don't really want to get into the reasons why right now, but I've always thought of it as a bad thing.

Post and run...coward.

[Curufin]

Actually, that was more half-awake and half-drugged than cowardly - I sometimes post strangely when I'm sick. I'll elaborate now that I'm more fully conscious.

My problem with home schooling is that it seems to me that people who are generally not qualified are taking their kids out of school and giving them a sub-par education, generally for reasons that I do not consider to be legitimate. Many of these are religious reasons - ones I've heard include not wanting their kids to learn about evolution or the big bang theory, or even for their kids to have sex ed classes. It seems to me that keeping children ignorant is just another way to brainwash them into believing and adhering to fundamentalist religions, and if you have to keep children ignorant in order to do this then maybe your religion has problems..

As for the qualifications, my mother, aunt, and cousins are all educators. I know the education they have had and the time and energy they put into preparing for their work. Teaching is not something that just anyone can do. To be a good teacher is a full-time job that requires education and training. And while a very select few homeschoolers may have this education, my guess would be that the vast majority do not. And while this may be alright when you're teaching very young children, how is someone with a high school education (again, the home school parents of my experience generally have a high school education) going to teach a child physics, biology, calculus, AP government, AP history, AP English, etc. as well as someone who has education and training in the subject? They're not. They're simply not.

Thirdly, socialization. Yes, high school is a miserable time. But it's also the time that you learn how to interact with other people - people who are different from you. Even home schoolers who have social experiences are more likely to have them in their own social circles - not branching out to meet different kinds of people. It's not good for children to be denied this experience. Children should not be raised to believe that everyone is going to be like them - it's going to be quite a shock later in life. The teasing, bullying etc. that takes place in high school, while miserable, is an important part of growing up and learning about society. What are these kids going to do when they first come in contact with this kind of behavior in college, or even worse, when they enter the workforce? It's going to be quite a shock for them.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Rinke, you're viewing this with sterotypes that aren't supported by evidence. The major reason for that is the same as the major reason for most stereotypes...that someone has a vested interest in misleading you. In this case, there's a large conservative industry that wants the image of a million "warriors for God" coming up outside of the public or private school system counted on their team. In fact, home-schooling is much more diverse and secular. Here's a synopsis of recent research on the topic.
http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2006/homescho...cteristics.asp

Here's a more recent study
http://eus.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/37/3/307

And here's a feminist homeschooling take.

http://www.canow.org/canoworg/2008/0...st-parent.html

[Curufin]

Actually, I'm basing it on my personal experience of people who have been homeschooled in my area. Which perfectly fits that stereotype.

[tolkienfan]

Originally Posted by Curufin

Actually, that was more half-awake and half-drugged than cowardly - I sometimes post strangely when I'm sick. I'll elaborate now that I'm more fully conscious.

My problem with home schooling is that it seems to me that people who are generally not qualified are taking their kids out of school and giving them a sub-par education, generally for reasons that I do not consider to be legitimate. Many of these are religious reasons - ones I've heard include not wanting their kids to learn about evolution or the big bang theory, or even for their kids to have sex ed classes. It seems to me that keeping children ignorant is just another way to brainwash them into believing and adhering to fundamentalist religions, and if you have to keep children ignorant in order to do this then maybe your religion has problems..

If you don't mind, I'd like to share my views and experiences. I've been homeschooled since third grade, and know many different homeschoolers.

I learned about many religions as well as the big bang theory, evolution, and sex ed. From what I hear, I would not have learned so much about religion in public school. Even in third grade I was not allowed to mention Jesus during school, and I went to a "good" school. I remember spending a lot of time running errands for the teacher during class because she could rely on me to actually behave and not run off. A lot of time was wasted that I could have spent learning. My parents pulled me out of school because the educational benefit was zero, and socially negative.

Originally Posted by Curufin

As for the qualifications, my mother, aunt, and cousins are all educators. I know the education they have had and the time and energy they put into preparing for their work. Teaching is not something that just anyone can do. To be a good teacher is a full-time job that requires education and training. And while a very select few homeschoolers may have this education, my guess would be that the vast majority do not. And while this may be alright when you're teaching very young children, how is someone with a high school education (again, the home school parents of my experience generally have a high school education) going to teach a child physics, biology, calculus, AP government, AP history, AP English, etc. as well as someone who has education and training in the subject? They're not. They're simply not.

Since junior high, my parents have had little direct involvement in my formal education. What I mean is, they don't teach me science, math, etc. The curriculum I've used was written so that I could teach myself, or rather, learn from the teacher who wrote the book. I did take one online course (Constitutional Law) I feel that my education is in every respect equal and even superior to the average public school education. While I didn't have access to fancy labs, my science program changed my life by interesting me in the subject and affecting how I view the world. (this science program would not be used in a public school, just ask Nurv) I scored high on the SAT and ACT and was accepted by several competitive colleges. I was also awarded a scholarship. I feel prepared to handle the coursework and I'm not afraid to meet new people.

Originally Posted by Curufin

Thirdly, socialization. Yes, high school is a miserable time. But it's also the time that you learn how to interact with other people - people who are different from you. Even home schoolers who have social experiences are more likely to have them in their own social circles - not branching out to meet different kinds of people. It's not good for children to be denied this experience. Children should not be raised to believe that everyone is going to be like them - it's going to be quite a shock later in life. The teasing, bullying etc. that takes place in high school, while miserable, is an important part of growing up and learning about society. What are these kids going to do when they first come in contact with this kind of behavior in college, or even worse, when they enter the workforce? It's going to be quite a shock for them.

I would actually say that the homeschoolers I know are better socialized than the public schoolers I know, precisely because they interact with different people. The public schoolers tend to stay in cliques with people their age, while the homeschoolers branch out and have friends from all over. What is the good of knowing there are people different from you if you just ignore them? The homeschoolers may meet less people, but consequently are more interested in the people they meet. I experienced teasing and bullying, funnily enough when I was in situations such as summer camp with public schoolers. I was most shocked by the teachers/coachs reactions, they generally just ignore it unless one of their favorites is involved. I grew up and learned about society much more without bullies dragging me down. I would say that I took it just as well as anyone else, and at least I tried to stand up for others, most of the rest of the kids just seemed resigned to it. All in all I had a great time in high school, and if I missed out on being miserable that's okay with me.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Curufin

Actually, I'm basing it on my personal experience of people who have been homeschooled in my area. Which perfectly fits that stereotype.

Well, that's the thing with stereotypes. People notice the parts that fit.

Educated people, however, try to weigh the usefulness of stereotype shorthand with the opportunity of perceiving the world accurately by incorporating additional evidence with their anecdotal observations.

[brownjenkins]

Simply put, homeschooling is a refuge for those that can't deal with the real world.

The best education in life is the one that helps you to deal with everything, not just the good things.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Well, that's simply put, all right.

No need to clutter up a prejudice of that size with facts.

[Meriadoc Brandybuck]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

Simply put, homeschooling is a refuge for those that can't deal with the real world.

The best education in life is the one that helps you to deal with everything, not just the good things.

I live a normal life, therefore I disprove you.
Same goes for almost all the homeschoolers I know.

Originally Posted by Curufin

As for the qualifications, my mother, aunt, and cousins are all educators. I know the education they have had and the time and energy they put into preparing for their work. Teaching is not something that just anyone can do. To be a good teacher is a full-time job that requires education and training. And while a very select few homeschoolers may have this education, my guess would be that the vast majority do not. And while this may be alright when you're teaching very young children, how is someone with a high school education (again, the home school parents of my experience generally have a high school education) going to teach a child physics, biology, calculus, AP government, AP history, AP English, etc. as well as someone who has education and training in the subject? They're not. They're simply not.

There is so much teaching cirriculum out there specifically for homeschoolers. I would definately say I'm doing better in school than I ever did in private school.
And poor, poor me for not being bullied. I wasn't bullied and didn't bully in private school anyway.
As far as socialization goes... consider yourself disproved.

Stereotyping kills.

[tolkienfan]

Originally Posted by Curufin

As for the qualifications, my mother, aunt, and cousins are all educators. I know the education they have had and the time and energy they put into preparing for their work. Teaching is not something that just anyone can do. To be a good teacher is a full-time job that requires education and training. And while a very select few homeschoolers may have this education, my guess would be that the vast majority do not. And while this may be alright when you're teaching very young children, how is someone with a high school education (again, the home school parents of my experience generally have a high school education) going to teach a child physics, biology, calculus, AP government, AP history, AP English, etc. as well as someone who has education and training in the subject? They're not. They're simply not.

It is indeed very difficult to be a good teacher, and most are overworked and underappreciated. Your relations would probably agree that there is a shortage of good teachers in many schools. And, how can one teacher, no matter how good, provide the same one-on-one individual attention that a parent can? All parents work hard to make the best choices for their children - not all children have the same needs.

[tolkienfan]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

Simply put, homeschooling is a refuge for those that can't deal with the real world.

The best education in life is the one that helps you to deal with everything, not just the good things.

If homeschooling is a refuge for those who can't deal with the real world, how is that a bad thing? (I'm not sure I know what you mean here. If a child is not learning in a public school, then why not let the parent do a better job if they can?) Homeschool can provide an education that helps you to deal with everything. If you don't want to take my word for it, here's a list of some successful homeschoolers - http://www.homeschoolacademy.com/fam...eschoolers.htm

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Yeah, tf, I'm taking that list with a grain of salt.

[tolkienfan]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Yeah, tf, I'm taking that list with a grain of salt.

You're right, but I thought it was interesting anyway. I was just going to say "well Abraham Lincoln was homeschooled, so there!", but I found that list instead. brownjenkins comment was a little painful to me. I've dealt with the real world so far, and while I'm incredibly blessed, it hasn't been all good things.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by tolkienfan

You're right, but I thought it was interesting anyway. I was just going to say "well Abraham Lincoln was homeschooled, so there!", but I found that list instead. brownjenkins comment was a little painful to me. I've dealt with the real world so far, and while I'm incredibly blessed, it hasn't been all good things.

It reveals a lot when people think that the 'real world' is composed of something that doesn't include families.

I wasn't homeschooled, although I think the education I wound up with has a lot in common with some of the trends I see currently among secular homeschoolers. I was blessed with involved parents and concerned teachers who individualized my education...and I think necessarily. What they did, in finding me appropriate educational environments, and good teachers, and in enabling me to follow my interests, is what I see homeschoolers do. My family sacrificed a lot to get us educations, and I wish, for them, that homeschooling had been a better option at the time.

However, it has been my observation, that nothing is "realer" than our connections to each other, and particularly our connections to our families. When those work, we have the potential for true success and happiness, and when they don't, no amount of education will get us those.

In "mommy environments" (and particularly online ones) this time of the year is just FULL of complaints from mommies who can't wait to see their kids back in school. You just don't hear that in homeschooled families I know.

People who defend schools so desperately, and see the 'real world' as something outside the family...I don't know. It just feels sad to me.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by tolkienfan

brownjenkins comment was a little painful to me.

I'm sorry, it was a little harsh.

There is no "right way" to go through life, instead there are many different ways.

The only reason I get a bit bitter about homeschooling is pragmatism. There is a significantly large portion of our population of children that don't even have a good home life, forget about home schooling. And homeschooling promotes the "well my childhood was fine" effect.

I noticed it a lot when I worked in Brookline, MA, an affluent suburb of Boston. Their public school system was much worse than many more working class suburbs in the area. The main reason was due to the fact that such a large portion of the population was rich and went to private schools and they simply didn't care how good the public schools were.

Those that were left were the few that couldn't afford, or didn't care, about their child's education.

Call me an idealist, but I think the education of our society's children is more important that the education of any one child, even if that education suffers somewhat in the process.

Homeschooling is a retreat of the individual from society at large, and I find that very disheartening.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

In "mommy environments" (and particularly online ones) this time of the year is just FULL of complaints from mommies who can't wait to see their kids back in school. You just don't hear that in homeschooled families I know.

Classic statistical self-selection.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

Call me an idealist, but I think the education of our society's children is more important that the education of any one child, even if that education suffers somewhat in the process.

And that's a point of view.

However, it's a 'religious' point of view, essentially. I don't see it as "pragmatisim" at all. You believe individuals can (and ought) be sacrificed for the common good. You choose children to sacrifice for that. If that was used as a reason for universal conscription, I find it hard to believe you'd support that, too. If it was used to select people for jobs, you'd hate that. It would interfere with your basic liberties. If the government collected all the food and redistributed it, or relocated people to maximize available housing, it would be terrible.

But it's okay to break up families for months at a time, every year for 12 years. It's okay to force children to associate with people they absolutely hate, and to take them from their families if they don't stay there. It's okay to put their parents in jail, if they don't make them. I think I'm hearing that you'd like to shut down the private schools, too. That would level the playing field?

Sure, it might damage a few individuals. But it's for the greater good. At least Lief is upfront about his motives, dude. What's on the line for him is nothing less than saving people from eternal perdition. That's really high stakes. What provable good are you willing to sacrifice basic freedoms for?

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

And that's a point of view.

However, it's a 'religious' point of view, essentially. I don't see it as "pragmatisim" at all. You believe individuals can (and ought) be sacrificed for the common good. You choose children to sacrifice for that. If that was used as a reason for universal conscription, I find it hard to believe you'd support that, too. If it was used to select people for jobs, you'd hate that. It would interfere with your basic liberties. If the government collected all the food and redistributed it, or relocated people to maximize available housing, it would be terrible.

But it's okay to break up families for months at a time, every year for 12 years. It's okay to force children to associate with people they absolutely hate, and to take them from their families if they don't stay there. It's okay to put their parents in jail, if they don't make them. I think I'm hearing that you'd like to shut down the private schools, too. That would level the playing field?

Sure, it might damage a few individuals. But it's for the greater good. At least Lief is upfront about his motives, dude. What's on the line for him is nothing less than saving people from eternal perdition. That's really high stakes. What provable good are you willing to sacrifice basic freedoms for?

Giving up a little for the good of another is what society is all about. It's not all or nothing. And, whether you want to belive it or not, giving a bit has its own benefits.

Once again, it is not so black and white. The sacrifices, if there even are any, are nowhere near as dramatic as you like to paint them.

That is the "religous" point of view. Painting the absolute worst situations you can find in the public school system as the norm in order to demonize the entire practice. You'd make a good republican.

If you can paint the public school system as that evil, you have some deep-set emotional prejudices that are way past my capacity to undo. Nothing I can say will do anything but reinforce what you want to believe.

Fortunately, most of our society thinks differently, and always will.