Lord Elronds Mistake

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

My impressions of Elrond are mostly from the book, but he did come across as very wise and knowledgeable of the treacherous nature of the Ring in the movie, so I think it still makes sense. (Of course, for those of you who haven't read the books, it's yet another huge, gaping plot hole.)

For those who have not read the book it is a HUGE, GAPING plothole. The neurotic venomous Elrond from the movie wouldn't have a second of hesitation before pushing Isildur into the fire.
And yes, another movie plothole are the Eagles. There is so little info on them in the movie, that there is no possible explanation why couldn't Gandalf summon an eagle and asked him to carry Frodo right to Orodruin.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Gordis

For those who have not read the book it is a HUGE, GAPING plothole. The neurotic venomous Elrond from the movie wouldn't have a second of hesitation before pushing Isildur into the fire.
And yes, another movie plothole are the Eagles. There is so little info on them in the movie, that there is no possible explanation why couldn't Gandalf summon an eagle and asked him to carry Frodo right to Orodruin.

i think the key to both of these points is the power of the ring... no one could willingly destroy it... including elrond or gandalf (and they knew this)... which is why none of the above happened

[King of The Istari]

I know it was because of the will of the ring but the will of the ring has become a bit like PJ's get out of jail free card, if anyone says "why didn't this happen" he can pull out his "Because of the will of the ring"

its a bit like george lucas' the force, if they're any continuity errors in the star wars films GL will say "its the force!"

any big fantasy movie has a scape goat of some kind to put all the continuty errors that people who are not fimiliar with the world come up with

PS. don't get me wrong I love LOTR and Star Wars,

[brownjenkins]

i realize that, but having a movie leave a bit to the imagination is not a bad thing

why did elrond not push isildur in? one who had not read the book might conclude that elrond, while a bit ornery, was not quite so evil as to just kill an ally in war, even if he thought that person was making a terribly bad decision

i guess PJ could have put elrond in a wrestling match with isildur in which he was knocked unconcious and isildur got away... but people would probably complain even more about that

and on the "eagle theory"... even people who have read the book ask "why did gandalf not just hire eagles to fly the ring over mount doom"... and it is left to the reader to formulate their own reasoning, since the book doesn't specifically spell out the possibility that even gandalf himself may have been unable to cast the ring in

[King of The Istari]

the same goes for why did they not keep the dead until after the battle at the black gate (in the book the dead aren't even at pellenor) I wonder what non readers of the book thought?

[brownjenkins]

in the extended edition aragorn releases them to keep his promise, but i am not sure whether or not this scene was in the regular version... if not, then it would be a bit confusing to some

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by King of The Istari

the same goes for why did they not keep the dead until after the battle at the black gate (in the book the dead aren't even at pellenor) I wonder what non readers of the book thought?

The dead repayed their debt by fighting one battle, as they were meant to do before they were cursed. In the book the dead fought the Corsairs of Umbar, and repayed their debt that way. If they had that battle aswell as the Pellenor then the film would have been to long.

[Mouth of the Dark Lord]

Originally Posted by olorin hamfast

Something occured to me whilst I was watching the New Line Version of LotR about a statement Lord Elrond made about the "Hearts of men", and how he saw the hearts of men fail;
" I was there that day"
He was with Isildur in the Chasm at Orodruin after the King had fallen and Isildur had cut the ring from the the Decievers hand.
"Cast it into the fire!" yelled Elrond
"No" and Isildur took the ring for himself, causing all sorts of problems for generations to come.
Why did Elrond not finish the job then by sticking a couple of elvish arrows into the greedy bastsard's back and kick Isildurs Bane into the fire for once and for all? Did he not fail the hearts of the Last Alliance? Im sure Mr Tolkien did not intend this to happen, as it wouldve cut short his royalties, but Lord Elrond wouldve properly served the efforts of the Last Alliance and put a quick and dirty end to the whole third age. Also, would we expect Samwise to the same to Mr Frodo when his moment of truth came that day in the bowels of the mountain of fire?!?

Elrond didn't stop him as, though it would have been best for the world, it was not his place to do so. It was Isildur's choice alone.

[arvedui_last_king]

elrond was right to do what he did. If he had killed Isildur (an evil act, no matter what Isildur did) he would have undoubtedly have himself refused to throw the ring into the fire.

[me9996]

The thing about Elrond killing Isildor and getting rid of the ring at the same time is that Isildor is still holding onto the ring and thus Elronds actions would not be directly against the ring so he could get the will up to do it.

However it would still be very hard to explain to the men and elves outside still, however it would still be better in my opinion to have a world without elves by the hand of men (And likely women) than by the hand of Souron...

Elrond probubly just made a mistake, if he knew what would result from him not killing Isildor then (or at least knocking the ring off his hand and into the lava) he would have knocked Isildor into the cracks of doom!!!

The elves left middle earth anyway so it doesn't make to much difference, sorta...

[Tulkas]

Elrond should of put Isildor in his place....no one else was their he could of said an orc slew him or something.

[Jon S.]

Originally Posted by Gordis

For those who have not read the book it is a HUGE, GAPING plothole. The neurotic venomous Elrond from the movie wouldn't have a second of hesitation before pushing Isildur into the fire.

To be fair, ages passed between the two events. Heck, I'm more jaded now than I was yesterday.

[Jon S.]

P.S. I don't believe this analysis from http://www.istad.org/tolkien/index.html has already been posted so here goes:

Push Him, Elrond

Many people have wondered why Jackson's version of Elrond (who famously says, "men are weak") didn't simply push Isildur into the fire while they were at the Cracks of Doom. However...

1) The movie is misleading: in the books Cirdan and Elrond don't manage to convince Isildur to go up to the Cracks of Doom. They would've had to drag Isildur against his will, and there was an army of Gondorian soldiers (not to mention the Ring) who would've objected to that!

2) Cirdan and Elrond quite possibly didn't know Sauron could come back.
They were probably just worried because it was an artifact of Sauron and therefore dangerous, and they knew that whoever held the One Ring could control the Three Rings of the Elves. But they couldn't raise too much of a fuss or that little secret might come out! In the end it was a thousand years before Sauron began to "coalesce" again, and more than 2500 years before Gandalf discovered that Sauron had not been destroyed. The Enemy was very careful to hide his movements and work through minions.

3) Killing the King of Men is a heinous crime and not something to be done casually; the political consequences for an Elf killing a Man and the Heir of Elros are pretty mindboggling.

4) Isildur claimed the Ring as a "weregild" for his father and brother. That is a very serious thing: that meant it was the payment/restitution given him for their deaths and his loss, and symbolically equal to their lives.

5) In the real story, Elrond was Gil-galad's herald, and Isildur would probably not have considered him an equal (although in fact Elrond was Gil-galad's heir and important among Elves). Nor was Cirdan a king. They could advise, but they didn't have Gil-galad's clout among Men.

I'm sure the reason Jackson showed the Cracks of Doom in the prologue is to give us a visual idea of the Fellowship's ultimate goal, but unfortunately it made Elrond look like a doofus.

[Gordis]

I have to agree with everything said above.
What a nice site you linked to, Jon S. There are some great articles there.
Perhaps you are the author?

[Jon S.]

Nah, I'm not nearly that erudite.

[Landroval]

2) Cirdan and Elrond quite possibly didn't know Sauron could come back.

Debatable; the ring existed during his previous reincarnation and it was known to them that he was a maia too - therefore able to assume whatever bodily form

3) Killing the King of Men is a heinous crime and not something to be done casually; the political consequences for an Elf killing a Man and the Heir of Elros are pretty mindboggling.

Hm... "few marked what Isildur did" it is stated in the Council of Elrond; one would ask how many could actually what was actually going on. Accidents do happen in war

4) Isildur claimed the Ring as a "weregild" for his father and brother. That is a very serious thing: that meant it was the payment/restitution given him for their deaths and his loss, and symbolically equal to their lives.

So? The elves suffered for much longer than Men did, from evil's oppresion - and none of them ever served Melkor willingly. Not to mention that the Numenoreans don't have that much of a moral ascendent of Middle-Earth, seeing how they previously enslaved, tortured and sacrificed its inhabitants to Melkor for some time.

Nor was Cirdan a king.

Well, we could go into semantics about where Lord of the Falathrim actually stands.

[Moshy]

i agree with u all along , but there was a reason of course , they were close friends afterall , imagine the situation happening between u and ur best friend , will you do as u demanded from Elrond ??