I am getting confused. - Page 2

Michael Martinez · 01-15-2002, 11:32 PM

Kiri, you may have quite a future ahead in Tolkien discussions. I look forward to reading more of your insightful posts.

***Earniel*** · 01-16-2002, 07:40 AM

Mmm, very interesting, I never thought of Hebrew influences in Tolkien work, but I'm gonna look into it. This is gonna be fun. Thanks Kiri!

bropous · 01-16-2002, 11:29 AM

No! No! The Book of Enoch? The Apocrypha? Heresy! Heresy! *pointing at kiri* Heretic! Heeeerrrriiiitiiiiic! Get the flaming stake! Drown the witch! Drown the witch! Trial by ordeal!!!!!

should be quite interesting reads, actually.....and they ain't been "King Jamesed" as far as I know.....

sepulchrave · 01-16-2002, 12:07 PM

Just in case anyone is still not sure, here are the titles of the twelve volumes of The History of Middle Earth:
-The Book of Lost Tales Part One
-The Book of Lost Tales Part Two
-The Lays of Beleriand
-The Shaping of Middle Earth (the Quenta, The Ambarkanta, and the Annals
-The Lost Road & other Writings
-The Return of the Shadow (The History of the Lord of the Rings, Part One)
-The Treason of Isengard (The History of the Lord of the Rings Part Two)
-The War of the Ring (The History of the Lord of the Rings Part Three)
-Sauron Defeated (The History of the Lord of the Rings Part Four)
-Morgoths Ring
-The War of the Jewels
-The Peoples of Middle Earth

emplynx · 01-16-2002, 03:45 PM

Good, Thanks.

Kiri · 01-16-2002, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bropous
should be quite interesting reads, actually.....and they ain't been "King Jamesed" as far as I know.....

The Old Testament Apocrypha as a group (1 Esdras, 2 Esdras, Tobit, Judith, 6 more chapters to Esther, Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach, Baruch, Letter of Jeremiah, Prayer of Azariah, Susanna, Bel and the Dragon, Prayer of Manasses King of Judah, 1 Maccabees, and 2 Maccabees) all appeared in the KJV. They were deleted in later editions.

Enoch is part of the Ethiopian Canon of Scripture, so it never got into the King James version, although there are a couple different English translations. There is one favored by occultists and one that is translated from the materials used by the Ethiopian Tawahedo (Orthodox) Church. Indeed, the Ethiopians have the broadest of all Biblical Canons. It includes not only the Tanakh and the (Old Testament) Apocrypha but also Jubilees and Joseph ben Gurion's history of the Jews. Their New Testament Canon adds eight books (all of them treatises on matters of Church governance or morality and none of them in the least bit Gnostic, I want to make plain) to the more standard 27.

emplynx · 02-10-2002, 05:35 PM

From Barrowdowns.com
The Hobbit

The Lord of the Rings
The Fellowship of the Ring
The Two Towers
The Return of the King

The Silmarillion
Unfinished Tales
The Adeventures of Tom Bombadil

The History of Middle Earth Series
The Book of Lost Tales, Part 1
The Book of Lost Tales, Part 2
The Lays of Beleriand
The Shaping of Middle-Earth: The Quenta, The Ambarkanta and the Annals
The Lost Road and Other Writings
The Return of the Shadow: The History of the Lord of the Rings, Part One
The Treason of Isengard: The History of the Lord of the Rings, Part Two
The War of the Ring: The History of the Lord of the Rings, Part Three
Sauron Defeated: The History of the Lord of the Rings, Part Four
Morgoth's Ring: The Later Silmarillion, Part One : The Legends of Aman
The War of the Jewels: The Later Silmarillion : Part Two : The Legends of Beleriand
The Peoples of Middle-Earth

markedel · 02-10-2002, 06:41 PM

Of course all the material but the Hobbit and LOTR are not stories, nor even collections of completed short stories as of the Silmarillion but rather explorations of both the process and form of Tolkien's work. The process is the most fascinating part, though I am ever ready to admit I have neither the skill nor the patience to seriously wade through large chunks of HoME. However, I believe that if one doesn't seriously explore Tolkien's work, you're depriving yourself.

emplynx · 02-10-2002, 06:48 PM

I recently purchased the HotLotR books:
The Return of the Shadow: The History of the Lord of the Rings, Part One
The Treason of Isengard: The History of the Lord of the Rings, Part Two
The War of the Ring: The History of the Lord of the Rings, Part Three
Sauron Defeated: The History of the Lord of the Rings, Part Four

They are on the top of my TO READ stack.

bropous · 02-13-2002, 11:33 AM

I'm not so sure that I will be reading the History of Middle Earth books. In leafing through them at the bookstore they seem really dry, plus a lot of abandoned material. I'm not so sure that I need all that "inside baseball" to really enjoy LotR, and that's what it's for, right? Enjoyment?

I know there is a lot of good info in Christopher's books, but is it really necessary to read the histories? I admire the dedication of some folks in reading the History, but for me, it just doesn't appeal very much. That's just me.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 02-13-2002, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bropous
I'm not so sure that I will be reading the History of Middle Earth books. In leafing through them at the bookstore they seem really dry, plus a lot of abandoned material. I'm not so sure that I need all that "inside baseball" to really enjoy LotR, and that's what it's for, right? Enjoyment?

I know there is a lot of good info in Christopher's books, but is it really necessary to read the histories? I admire the dedication of some folks in reading the History, but for me, it just doesn't appeal very much. That's just me.

Granted, they are tough. I now have five volumes, and I am still plodding through Morgoth's Ring. For me, it is very hard to read any of the HoMe from front to back. They consist of a great deal of explanitory material from C.T. which makes it complicated, but there is a great deal to learn from these books and they can answer a lot of questions. Now, are they entertaining? I think at times they are. I was greatly entertained in reading Laws and Customes of the Eldar, and the Athrabeth. I know a lot of people believe that Morgoth's Ring is one of the best of the twelve volumes, and so far, I have to agree. Is reading the Histories a must? Well, I would say yes, if you are really seriously into Tolkien, and If you don't wish to be out witted on MBs cause you are'nt aware of all the different versions of the mytho and the changes that now stand as is.

01-15-2002, 11:32 PM	#21
Michael Martinez Elven Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2000 Posts: 892	Kiri, you may have quite a future ahead in Tolkien discussions. I look forward to reading more of your insightful posts. __________________ http://www.xenite.org/faqs/lotr_movie/ http://www.michael-martinez.com/ http://www.merp.com/essays/MichaelMartinez/

01-16-2002, 11:29 AM	#23
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	No! No! The Book of Enoch? The Apocrypha? Heresy! Heresy! pointing at kiri Heretic! Heeeerrrriiiitiiiiic! Get the flaming stake! Drown the witch! Drown the witch! Trial by ordeal!!!!! should be quite interesting reads, actually.....and they ain't been "King Jamesed" as far as I know..... __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

02-10-2002, 06:41 PM	#28
markedel 'Sober' Mullet Frosh Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Queen's Posts: 1,245	Of course all the material but the Hobbit and LOTR are not stories, nor even collections of completed short stories as of the Silmarillion but rather explorations of both the process and form of Tolkien's work. The process is the most fascinating part, though I am ever ready to admit I have neither the skill nor the patience to seriously wade through large chunks of HoME. However, I believe that if one doesn't seriously explore Tolkien's work, you're depriving yourself. __________________ "Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom"

02-13-2002, 11:33 AM	#30
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	I'm not so sure that I will be reading the History of Middle Earth books. In leafing through them at the bookstore they seem really dry, plus a lot of abandoned material. I'm not so sure that I need all that "inside baseball" to really enjoy LotR, and that's what it's for, right? Enjoyment? I know there is a lot of good info in Christopher's books, but is it really necessary to read the histories? I admire the dedication of some folks in reading the History, but for me, it just doesn't appeal very much. That's just me. __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

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01-16-2002, 07:40 AM	#22
*Earniel* The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium) Posts: 14,363	Mmm, very interesting, I never thought of Hebrew influences in Tolkien work, but I'm gonna look into it. This is gonna be fun. Thanks Kiri!

01-16-2002, 12:07 PM	#24
sepulchrave Enting Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: vancouver island, BC, Canada Posts: 58	Just in case anyone is still not sure, here are the titles of the twelve volumes of The History of Middle Earth: -The Book of Lost Tales Part One -The Book of Lost Tales Part Two -The Lays of Beleriand -The Shaping of Middle Earth (the Quenta, The Ambarkanta, and the Annals -The Lost Road & other Writings -The Return of the Shadow (The History of the Lord of the Rings, Part One) -The Treason of Isengard (The History of the Lord of the Rings Part Two) -The War of the Ring (The History of the Lord of the Rings Part Three) -Sauron Defeated (The History of the Lord of the Rings Part Four) -Morgoths Ring -The War of the Jewels -The Peoples of Middle Earth

01-16-2002, 03:45 PM	#25
emplynx Self-Appointed Lord of the Free Peoples of the General Messages Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 1,214	Good, Thanks.

02-10-2002, 05:35 PM	#27
emplynx Self-Appointed Lord of the Free Peoples of the General Messages Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 1,214	From Barrowdowns.com The Hobbit The Lord of the Rings The Fellowship of the Ring The Two Towers The Return of the King The Silmarillion Unfinished Tales The Adeventures of Tom Bombadil The History of Middle Earth Series The Book of Lost Tales, Part 1 The Book of Lost Tales, Part 2 The Lays of Beleriand The Shaping of Middle-Earth: The Quenta, The Ambarkanta and the Annals The Lost Road and Other Writings The Return of the Shadow: The History of the Lord of the Rings, Part One The Treason of Isengard: The History of the Lord of the Rings, Part Two The War of the Ring: The History of the Lord of the Rings, Part Three Sauron Defeated: The History of the Lord of the Rings, Part Four Morgoth's Ring: The Later Silmarillion, Part One : The Legends of Aman The War of the Jewels: The Later Silmarillion : Part Two : The Legends of Beleriand The Peoples of Middle-Earth

02-10-2002, 06:48 PM	#29
emplynx Self-Appointed Lord of the Free Peoples of the General Messages Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 1,214	I recently purchased the HotLotR books: The Return of the Shadow: The History of the Lord of the Rings, Part One The Treason of Isengard: The History of the Lord of the Rings, Part Two The War of the Ring: The History of the Lord of the Rings, Part Three Sauron Defeated: The History of the Lord of the Rings, Part Four They are on the top of my TO READ stack.