I am getting confused.

emplynx · 01-13-2002, 05:23 PM

I am having some misunderstandings on Tolkien's "other" Middle-Earth Books. I am going to share what I understand.

Their are the 4 The History of the Lord of the Rings books which are indepth books made from drafts of the Lord of the Rings. Correct?

There are 10 History of the Middle-Earth books, 4 of which are the HotLotR books.

There is the Silmarillion which is the history of the First age.

Is this all correct? Are there more?

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 01-13-2002, 08:10 PM

There is Unfinished tales. This came out after the Silmarillion. There are twelve volumes of the HoMe. There are the Letters of Tolkien.

bropous · 01-13-2002, 10:29 PM

I highly recommend to all "Letters of JRR Tolkien"

Ñólendil · 01-14-2002, 12:13 AM

The History of Middle-earth also consists of The History of The Silmarillion (which are Volumes X and XI).

There's four M-e books published in Tolkien's life: The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, The Adventures of Tom Bombadil and The Road Goes Ever On. Then there's Unfinished Tales, The Silmarillion and Christopher Tolkien's History of Middle-earth series (which consists of twelve volumes). It's very useful to have the Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien by Humphery Carpenter too.

So I guess there's nineteen Tolkienien books you can get that relate to his mythos in one way or another.

bropous · 01-14-2002, 12:31 AM

Interesting, Inoldonil, I never ran across either "Adventures of Tom Bombadil" or "Road Goes Ever On". I've also not seen all twelve books of "History of Middle Earth". Thanks for pointing those out, I have some investing in "quality paperbacks" to do in the near future...

See, one learns something every day from the Moot! [Deservedly knocking self down a few pegs....]

Ñólendil · 01-14-2002, 12:48 AM

Please keep in mind though that The Adventures of Tom Bombadil isn't a whole book about Tom. The title is very misleading. It's a collections of what are meant to be Hobbit-poems and songs, written for their children. The title of the first poem is called The Adventures of Tom Bombadil, I think it was written by Sam Gamgee. Only two of them center around Tom, the rest are all different (but very good).

The Road Goes Ever On is now out of print, you may have to buy it off E-bay (that's what my parents did this Christmast, bless them). It's actually by J. R. R. Tolkien and Donald Swann, a musician. It's a Song Cycle, Donald Swann put together musical notes to go with some songs from the Lord of the Rings, and they were approved by Tolkien. In the back are very valuable and very rare notes by J. R. R. Tolkien, about some of the different songs and their mythological signifigance. Here is where one discovers that the Valar put a ban upon the return of any leaders of the Rebellion still living in M-e at the end of the First Age (i.e., Galadriel). This is where Tar-Elenion found his quote about the Valar being large but not gigantic in size when they took on humanoid forms, thus knocking down all our 'how-tall-is-Morgoth' theories.

When I first returned to the Tolkien books to study a few years ago I had no idea how many there are. There's about twenty having to do with his mythology, but there's so much more!

Michael Martinez · 01-14-2002, 01:19 AM

Anyone wanting to really understand Middle-earth should also get Carpenter's biography of Tolkien, J.R.R. Tolkien: Artist & Illustrator, and The Annotated Hobbit.

And then you'll want to browse the list of back issues for the journal Vinyar Tengwar at http://www.elvish.org/VT/.

The study of Tolkien's languages can be very rewarding for those who want to know more about the histories and cultures of his Elves and Men, but if you're not a linguist the material can become very tedious rather fast.

Ñólendil · 01-14-2002, 01:48 AM

What's The Annotated Hobbit?

Michael Martinez · 01-14-2002, 01:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Inoldonil
What's The Annotated Hobbit?

A very thorough treatment of The Hobbit by Douglas Anderson, in which he provides marginal notes, a foreword with background information, many pictrures and comments from translations of The Hobbit in other countries, and an appendix documenting all the known changes in text between the various editions of the book.

Although The Annotated Hobbit is currently out-of-print, a new edition is being prepared for publication this summer.

bropous · 01-14-2002, 02:20 AM

Well, Samwise, when he was cooking the coneys in Ithilien, was certainly "A-no-tatered-hobbit."

Kiri · 01-14-2002, 02:57 PM

I definitely have to get _The Road Goes Ever On_, because my mind does strange things to verse.

"The Road Goes Ever On" (the song) is wedded to "La Raspar" (aka "Mexican Hat Dance") in my mind.

emplynx · 01-14-2002, 05:00 PM

I would really like the tolkien bio but I don't have $26!

bropous · 01-14-2002, 09:31 PM

emplynx, my friend, this is no criticism, but as for me, since the age of fourteen, I have held a full-time job MOST of my life. I went to school, and bussed or waited tables full-time in high school, afforded my personal "affectations" [and, may I note, I may have had one or two "affectations" with which you may not, thankfully, be belaboured ], and financed my own book purchases, among other things [which will remain "unmentionables" of which I wish sincerely you may NEVER partake *wink wink!*].

Mayhaps, if parental objections are willing, you can do as I did: find a Chinese restaurant and bus tables, wash dishes, whatever...and buy what you desire!

Again, my dear friend, and God's Buddy [note the capitalizations!], mayhaps a little "employment-oriented [sic!] extracurricular activities" may win you the $26 samoyens needed to purloin the above-mentioned "Tolkien bio"!

HINT: Save yourself the $11 US and buy "Letters of JRR Tolkien" which gives you the development of the "Hobbit" and LotR through the Master's own words and experiences!.

Again, my dear fellow-Mooter, no disrespect intended have I "misread" your situation! You are one of my favorite posters....and so will remain...along with the masterful afro-elf, FrodoFriend, Inoldonil, and RogueElf...not to mention DarthTater, kiri and bmilder!

bropous · 01-14-2002, 09:39 PM

confound this accursed faulty short-term memory....I also meant to include, among my favorite Mooters, Kevin and Pailan, SisterGoldenHair, and luinilwen....

emplynx · 01-15-2002, 08:07 AM

bropous, trust me, I want a job, I can't get one till I am 16, I am going to get one when I turn 16 in 2 weeks.

***Earniel*** · 01-15-2002, 10:35 AM

Blast ! And I thought that I had covered it pretty much with the Hobbit, the 3 Lord of the ringsbooks and the silmarilion. Now I see that I'll NEVER gonna be able to lay hands on all of them, why did he have to write so MANY?!

Kiri · 01-15-2002, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Eärniel
Blast ! And I thought that I had covered it pretty much with the Hobbit, the 3 Lord of the ringsbooks and the silmarilion. Now I see that I'll NEVER gonna be able to lay hands on all of them, why did he have to write so MANY?!

The "Letters" is in paperback. The twelve-volume "History" is also in paperback. Just do what I did when my cash flow was restricted. Get one book at a time. Read it well, don't merely read it. Then get the next book.

"Chewed and thoroughly digested" covers a great deal of Tolkien's work.

Of course, THEN there's all that other stuff that demands to be read to distract you. There are the Eddas--but then one needs to learn Icelandic (started on it, going slowly), and there are the Romano/Greco Classics (a linguistically-apt Priest helps here in my case) the Hebrew material should not be ignored (I admit to going with the English only). Wagner's _Ring_ cycle is definitely a good idea for understanding parts of it (and the older material it's based on). I recommend the Solti recordings.

If you want to expand upon the Professor's ideas (and why not--if your efforts are horrible they will be mercifully forgotten in due time, so never fear to try), then don't forget to delve into material not available in his lifetime or not within his particular area of interest. My own "Byzantinization" some years ago as part of converting to the Orthodox Church definitely put a new twist on how I see parts of Middle Earth these days.

Do not despair at the scope of the material and learning to do. It has been my observation that serious scholars, both amateur and professional, seem to live remarkably long lives. Evidently, there is something preservative in immersion of the timelessness of knowledge...

Pailan · 01-15-2002, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bropous
confound this accursed faulty short-term memory....I also meant to include, among my favorite Mooters, Kevin and Pailan, SisterGoldenHair, and luinilwen....

Ah thankee kind Sir. Lor' bless ye.

***Earniel*** · 01-15-2002, 04:33 PM

Thanks for the advice Kiri, that's exactly what I'm planning to do.

As for the background info, I've read a translation of the Edda, have (I think) a sufficient knowledge of Roman and Greek mythology and read the the Ring Saga (though an original form not the Wagner version) But I'm just a bit hazy about the Hebrew material. Could you elaborate a bit on that?

Kiri · 01-15-2002, 07:15 PM

Begin with what is commonly known today as the "Old Testament". Then I recommend the Book of Enoch (indeed, there are a lot of similarities between the Book of Enoch and what got into parts of the Silmarillion). From there the field is very broad, up to and including the "Old Testament Apocrypha" and a large body of pre-Roman Messianic Judaica. The Valar and Maiar are very Hebraic in some ways--much more angelic than they are "divine".

01-13-2002, 05:23 PM	#1
emplynx Self-Appointed Lord of the Free Peoples of the General Messages Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 1,214	I am getting confused. I am having some misunderstandings on Tolkien's "other" Middle-Earth Books. I am going to share what I understand. Their are the 4 The History of the Lord of the Rings books which are indepth books made from drafts of the Lord of the Rings. Correct? There are 10 History of the Middle-Earth books, 4 of which are the HotLotR books. There is the Silmarillion which is the history of the First age. Is this all correct? Are there more?

01-13-2002, 10:29 PM	#3
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	I highly recommend to all "Letters of JRR Tolkien" __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

01-14-2002, 12:13 AM	#4
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	The History of Middle-earth also consists of The History of The Silmarillion (which are Volumes X and XI). There's four M-e books published in Tolkien's life: The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, The Adventures of Tom Bombadil and The Road Goes Ever On. Then there's Unfinished Tales, The Silmarillion and Christopher Tolkien's History of Middle-earth series (which consists of twelve volumes). It's very useful to have the Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien by Humphery Carpenter too. So I guess there's nineteen Tolkienien books you can get that relate to his mythos in one way or another. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

01-14-2002, 12:31 AM	#5
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	Interesting, Inoldonil, I never ran across either "Adventures of Tom Bombadil" or "Road Goes Ever On". I've also not seen all twelve books of "History of Middle Earth". Thanks for pointing those out, I have some investing in "quality paperbacks" to do in the near future... See, one learns something every day from the Moot! [Deservedly knocking self down a few pegs....] __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

01-14-2002, 12:48 AM	#6
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	Please keep in mind though that The Adventures of Tom Bombadil isn't a whole book about Tom. The title is very misleading. It's a collections of what are meant to be Hobbit-poems and songs, written for their children. The title of the first poem is called The Adventures of Tom Bombadil, I think it was written by Sam Gamgee. Only two of them center around Tom, the rest are all different (but very good). The Road Goes Ever On is now out of print, you may have to buy it off E-bay (that's what my parents did this Christmast, bless them). It's actually by J. R. R. Tolkien and Donald Swann, a musician. It's a Song Cycle, Donald Swann put together musical notes to go with some songs from the Lord of the Rings, and they were approved by Tolkien. In the back are very valuable and very rare notes by J. R. R. Tolkien, about some of the different songs and their mythological signifigance. Here is where one discovers that the Valar put a ban upon the return of any leaders of the Rebellion still living in M-e at the end of the First Age (i.e., Galadriel). This is where Tar-Elenion found his quote about the Valar being large but not gigantic in size when they took on humanoid forms, thus knocking down all our 'how-tall-is-Morgoth' theories. When I first returned to the Tolkien books to study a few years ago I had no idea how many there are. There's about twenty having to do with his mythology, but there's so much more! __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

01-13-2002, 08:10 PM	#2
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	There is Unfinished tales. This came out after the Silmarillion. There are twelve volumes of the HoMe. There are the Letters of Tolkien.

01-14-2002, 01:19 AM	#7
Michael Martinez Elven Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2000 Posts: 892	Anyone wanting to really understand Middle-earth should also get Carpenter's biography of Tolkien, J.R.R. Tolkien: Artist & Illustrator, and The Annotated Hobbit. And then you'll want to browse the list of back issues for the journal Vinyar Tengwar at http://www.elvish.org/VT/. The study of Tolkien's languages can be very rewarding for those who want to know more about the histories and cultures of his Elves and Men, but if you're not a linguist the material can become very tedious rather fast. __________________ http://www.xenite.org/faqs/lotr_movie/ http://www.michael-martinez.com/ http://www.merp.com/essays/MichaelMartinez/

01-14-2002, 01:48 AM	#8
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	What's The Annotated Hobbit? __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

01-14-2002, 02:20 AM	#10
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	Well, Samwise, when he was cooking the coneys in Ithilien, was certainly "A-no-tatered-hobbit." __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

01-14-2002, 02:57 PM	#11
Kiri Hobbit Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 42	I definitely have to get _The Road Goes Ever On_, because my mind does strange things to verse. "The Road Goes Ever On" (the song) is wedded to "La Raspar" (aka "Mexican Hat Dance") in my mind.

01-14-2002, 05:00 PM	#12
emplynx Self-Appointed Lord of the Free Peoples of the General Messages Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 1,214	I would really like the tolkien bio but I don't have $26!

01-14-2002, 09:31 PM	#13
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	emplynx, my friend, this is no criticism, but as for me, since the age of fourteen, I have held a full-time job MOST of my life. I went to school, and bussed or waited tables full-time in high school, afforded my personal "affectations" [and, may I note, I may have had one or two "affectations" with which you may not, thankfully, be belaboured ], and financed my own book purchases, among other things [which will remain "unmentionables" of which I wish sincerely you may NEVER partake wink wink!]. Mayhaps, if parental objections are willing, you can do as I did: find a Chinese restaurant and bus tables, wash dishes, whatever...and buy what you desire! Again, my dear friend, and God's Buddy [note the capitalizations!], mayhaps a little "employment-oriented [sic!] extracurricular activities" may win you the $26 samoyens needed to purloin the above-mentioned "Tolkien bio"! HINT: Save yourself the $11 US and buy "Letters of JRR Tolkien" which gives you the development of the "Hobbit" and LotR through the Master's own words and experiences!. Again, my dear fellow-Mooter, no disrespect intended have I "misread" your situation! You are one of my favorite posters....and so will remain...along with the masterful afro-elf, FrodoFriend, Inoldonil, and RogueElf...not to mention DarthTater, kiri and bmilder! __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160. Last edited by bropous : 01-14-2002 at 09:36 PM.

01-14-2002, 09:39 PM	#14
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	confound this accursed faulty short-term memory....I also meant to include, among my favorite Mooters, Kevin and Pailan, SisterGoldenHair, and luinilwen.... __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

01-15-2002, 08:07 AM	#15
emplynx Self-Appointed Lord of the Free Peoples of the General Messages Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 1,214	bropous, trust me, I want a job, I can't get one till I am 16, I am going to get one when I turn 16 in 2 weeks.

01-15-2002, 10:35 AM	#16
*Earniel* The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium) Posts: 14,363	Blast ! And I thought that I had covered it pretty much with the Hobbit, the 3 Lord of the ringsbooks and the silmarilion. Now I see that I'll NEVER gonna be able to lay hands on all of them, why did he have to write so MANY?!

01-15-2002, 04:33 PM	#19
*Earniel* The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium) Posts: 14,363	Thanks for the advice Kiri, that's exactly what I'm planning to do. As for the background info, I've read a translation of the Edda, have (I think) a sufficient knowledge of Roman and Greek mythology and read the the Ring Saga (though an original form not the Wagner version) But I'm just a bit hazy about the Hebrew material. Could you elaborate a bit on that?

01-15-2002, 07:15 PM	#20
Kiri Hobbit Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 42	The Hebrew Material Begin with what is commonly known today as the "Old Testament". Then I recommend the Book of Enoch (indeed, there are a lot of similarities between the Book of Enoch and what got into parts of the Silmarillion). From there the field is very broad, up to and including the "Old Testament Apocrypha" and a large body of pre-Roman Messianic Judaica. The Valar and Maiar are very Hebraic in some ways--much more angelic than they are "divine".

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