Sailing Into The West

[Agburanar]

I'm about halfway through the Sil and I found a bit that says:

"of the many messengers that sailed into the west none ever came to Valinor..."

So what about all the elves that sailed intot he West at the end of the third age? Did they and the ring bearers never come to Valinor? How sad (sniff!).

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Agburanar
I'm about halfway through the Sil and I found a bit that says:

"of the many messengers that sailed into the west none ever came to Valinor..."

So what about all the elves that sailed intot he West at the end of the third age? Did they and the ring bearers never come to Valinor? How sad (sniff!).

n the First Age, Valinor became fenced against the Noldor because of their rebellion against the Valar. Therefore, any that would try to sail to Aman would be lost. Of course humans were never permited to set foot on the Undying Lands, with the excption of Earendil, and he was not permitted to return, and was placed in the sky with the Silmaril bound to his forehead. Now, when the Elves and the Keepers of the Rings, along with the Ring bearers and Gimli sailed into the West at the end of the Third Age, they sailed to Tol-Erassea. Tol-Eressea was an island that was anchored in the Bay of Balar. Although it technichly was not Valinor, it was and wasn't. But it dwelt in sight of Valinor, and at one time received the light of the Two Trees.

[Ñólendil]

"with the excption of Earendil, "

And Tuor, who became immortal.

"they sailed to Tol-Erassea. Tol-Eressea was an island that was anchored in the Bay of Balar. "

The Bay of Balar was in Beleriand. Tol-Eressea was at one time part of the island in that bay, but by the First Age it was in the Bay of Eldamar.

"Although it technichly was not Valinor, it was and wasn't."

I think in the Third Age it was considered to be a part of Aman, but it was never considered to be a part of Valinor. In the First Age the Noldor were banned even from Eressea.

What Sister Golden Hair was getting at (I think she typed the above post when she was desperately deprived of sleep) is this: the Ban had long since lifted by the Fourth Age, and everyone who took ship from the Grey Havens in the direction of Aman in the Lord of the Rings certainly got there.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Ñólendil
"with the excption of Earendil, "

And Tuor, who became immortal.

"they sailed to Tol-Erassea. Tol-Eressea was an island that was anchored in the Bay of Balar. "

The Bay of Balar was in Beleriand. Tol-Eressea was at one time part of the island in that bay, but by the First Age it was in the Bay of Eldamar.

"Although it technichly was not Valinor, it was and wasn't."

I think in the Third Age it was considered to be a part of Aman, but it was never considered to be a part of Valinor. In the First Age the Noldor were banned even from Eressea.

What Sister Golden Hair was getting at (I think she typed the above post when she was desperately deprived of sleep) is this: the Ban had long since lifted by the Fourth Age, and everyone who took ship from the Grey Havens in the direction of Aman in the Lord of the Rings certainly got there.

Uh, listen Frank, They didn't go to Aman. Tol-Eressea is not exactly Aman. Get some sleep yourself.

[Agburanar]

Huh? So where did they go?

[Sister Golden Hair]

They went to Tol-Eressea. OK here is what the Guide To Middle-earth says about Tol-Eressea:

(Quenya: island lonely) A large island created by upheavals of the destruction of the Lamps of the Valar. Originally located in the middle of Belegaer, the island was uprooted by Ulmo and brought to the Bay of Balar to transport the Eldar to Aman. Ulmo anchored the isle in the Bay of Eldamar. The eastermost of the Undying Lands, Tol-ressea, especially its western shore, was bathed in the light of the two trees, and here grew the first flowers outside Valinor.

[Agburanar]

What, all of them went there? Biiiig island!

[Sister Golden Hair]

Yeppers!

[Agburanar]

So what was on this island that was soooooo fantasic?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Agburanar
So what was on this island that was soooooo fantasic?

I would say it was as close as you could get to Valinor, and had all of the same benefits. Rest for the weary, healing, and beauty.

[Wayfarer]

Nope.

If htey had gotten to Eldamar, they would have for all purposes been in Valinor.

Nope, what happened was that they succumbed to the defenses guarding the Blessed Realm.

I.E. i think it was the shadowy isles... mariners would be overcome with sleep, and would lay there until...whenever.

[Ñólendil]

"Uh, listen Frank, They didn't go to Aman. Tol-Eressea is not exactly Aman. Get some sleep yourself."

Tol-Eressea is a part of Aman, in the Third Age. The info. is in the Letters. Tol-Eressea is never called Aman or said to be a part of Aman in the Elder Days, but in letters dealing with the Third Age Tolkien refers to it in such a way. Aman = Tol-Eressea and Valinórë after the Drowning of Númenor.

"What, all of them went there? Biiiig island!"

Although Sister Golden Hair chose to say 'yeppers', because, to reiterate, she hasn't slept , the answer is 'no'. Only a part of the Eldar were transported to the Blessed Realm via that island, not all the Eldar.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Ñólendil


"What, all of them went there? Biiiig island!"

Although Sister Golden Hair chose to say 'yeppers', because, to reiterate, she hasn't slept , the answer is 'no'. Only a part of the Eldar were transported to the Blessed Realm via that island, not all the Eldar.

OK,OK, I think we're talking about two different things here. When I say they all went to Tol-Eressea, I am refering to the Last Riding of the Keepers of the Rings at the end of the Third Age, not the transporting of the Eldar in the First Age.

Nolendi, your making me sleepy.

[Wayfarer]

He does that sometimes... ]: )

[Agburanar]

So where did the others go? If I get any more confused my head will cave in and my legs will crumble into a fine powder.

[Sister Golden Hair]

OK, let's see if Foster can be of any help again.

This is in the First Age.

Noldor- "One of the three kindreds of the Eldar. On the Great Journey, led by Finwe, the Noldor followed the Vanyar, but preceeded the Teleri, they sailed to Eldamar on the first voyage of Tol Eressea. In Eldamar the Noldor ruled by Finwe, dwelt in Tirion, but their thirst for knowledge impelled them to travel throughout Aman."

Vanyar- "First and smallest of the kindreds of the Eldar. Under the leadership of Ingwe, they were the first to set forth on the Great Journey and the first to reach the shores of Belegaer: they sailed to Aman on the first voyage of Tol Eressea. In Aman, the Vanyar first dwelt in Tirion. Later it appears that they settled on Taniquetil."

OK, I have to do this in two posts.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Teleri- "Third and largest of the three kindreds of the Eldar. They lagged behind during the great journey, and were reluctant to leave Middle-earth. In Beleriand the Teleri lived in the east, and thus missed the first journey of Tol Eressea to Aman. When they realized that the Vanyar and Noldor were gone, many Teleri, led by Olwe, moved to the mouths of Sirion. During this time, the Teleri developed their love for the sea. When Ulmo returned to take them to Aman, some of the Teleri at the request of Osse, remained in the Falas.
The majority of the Teleri went west on the second voyage of Tol Eressea, but at the request of Ossea, Ulmo anchored the island in the Bay of Eldamar. There, surrounded by the sea, but within sight of Aman, the Teleri lived for a long time.
Finally, their desire for the light of Aman grew so great, that Osse taught them the art of shipbuilding, and they carried them to the coast of Eldamar, where they built Aqualonde."

At the end of the Third Age, the Last Riding of the Keepers of the Rings sailed to Tol Eressea.

[Curufinwe]

But surely, Olorin must have found his way back to Valinor proper, as a Maia?

[Ñólendil]

Well, yeah, I suppose so. And I don't see why any of the others that landed on the Lonely Isle couldn't have visited the main land either. Imagine Frodo meeting Manwe and Varda!