Did Saruman die? And what of Saruman's ring? - Page 3

**Nurvingiel** · 03-25-2005, 09:35 AM

You guys make a good point about Saruman. He does seem to be a bit of a hypocrite (as Eärniel pointed out about smoking). I wouldn't put it past him to be boasting about that, but it certainly is possible that he could have made a ring of small power at least.

Look, matey, I know a dead Istari when I see one, and I'm looking at one right now.

Hm... where's the Monty Python meets LotR thread..?

me9996 · 03-25-2005, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

You guys make a good point about Saruman. He does seem to be a bit of a hypocrite (as Eärniel pointed out about smoking). I wouldn't put it past him to be boasting about that, but it certainly is possible that he could have made a ring of small power at least.

Look, matey, I know a dead Istari when I see one, and I'm looking at one right now.

Hm... where's the Monty Python meets LotR thread..?

Like I said, this thread has proven it's point... maybe it'll go into the arcives.

CrazySquirrel · 04-07-2005, 11:29 AM

I think Saruman used his ring to act through Grima (transmit the power of his persuation) and to control orcs. Maybe Grima had a lesser Saruman-made ring that was overlooked.
Now that I think on it, Saruman's ring may have lost all the power together with the One, that's why Grima became free and killed Saruman. Or perhaps I am just influenced by Gordis's nazgul-freedom tread

Last Child of Ungoliant · 04-07-2005, 11:32 AM

no, it was potions and minor incantations that grima used, ie: the whisperings of grima.
maybe saruman used a ring to control grima, but not to act through him, IMHO

CrazySquirrel · 04-07-2005, 12:31 PM

Does one really need a ring to control one such as Grima?

Last Child of Ungoliant · 04-07-2005, 12:34 PM

oh yes, IMHO grima was an extremely rebellious character, as was shown whengandalf/hobbits/elrond/galadriel/celeborn encountered him and saruman on way home, it was shown that dissent was already growing within him, and of course grima turns completely and kills saruman in the scouring.

CrazySquirrel · 04-07-2005, 12:47 PM

I think Grima could not have betrayed Saruman if he were ring-controlled

I have just read the "Hunt for the ring" in Unf.tales, and there it is written that in Sept 3018 Grima encountered the nazgul after their talk with Saruman. Grima betrayed his master and the WitchKing let him live, because "he percieved that the creature was evil and would make yet more harm to Saruman in the future".
By the way, I wonder, was it a prophesy?

Last Child of Ungoliant · 04-07-2005, 12:51 PM

most likely, yes, the witchking was, IIRC one of the nazgul descended from black numenoreans, and the people of numenor had a deal of foresight, altho i cant remember which nazgul were descended from easterlings, except Khamul, the Terror of the East, IIRC there were 3 that were black numenoreans before their fall

CrazySquirrel · 04-07-2005, 12:57 PM

I have always thought the Wikkie was a king of Numenor therefore Isildur's and Aragorn's relative. But I don't remember where I read it

Last Child of Ungoliant · 04-07-2005, 12:58 PM

no not a king of numenor, but a king of perhaps Umbar, but of numenorean descent. IIRC

CrazySquirrel · 04-07-2005, 01:06 PM

But i think he was of the same line as the kings
Faramir says "Lords of Numenor" doesn't it mean of the line of Elros?

I mean Witchy was a sorcerer, Isildur was also (hasn't he cursed a whole people to wander as spirits), Malbeth the seer was probably kings relative, Aragorn makes prophesy about Gandalf falling in Moria. Wasn't it in the family? Elven-maiar blood?

Olmer · 04-07-2005, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

I have always thought the Wikkie was a king of Numenor therefore Isildur's and Aragorn's relative. But I don't remember where I read it

Amazing! Without giving too much thought you picked up exact concept, that the Witch-King had more right for Gondor's and Arnor's thrones, than any of Elendil's descendants! In this way his war with Arnor has had more personal reasons .
I found strange discrepancies in the data of some Numenorian Kings. Unfortunately, never had enough time to work on it.

Gordis · 04-07-2005, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

But i think he was of the same line as the kings
Faramir says "Lords of Numenor" doesn't it mean of the line of Elros?
I mean Witchy was a sorcerer, Isildur was also (hasn't he cursed a whole people to wander as spirits), Malbeth the seer was probably kings relative, Aragorn makes prophesy about Gandalf falling in Moria. Wasn't it in the family? Elven-maiar blood?

I think it is a very good argument.
Really sorcerors ot prophets were rare among Men, and all the known cases belong, or are likely to belong, to the same line with maia and elven blood.

Gordis · 04-07-2005, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olmer

Amazing! Without giving too much thought you picked up exact concept, that the Witch-King had more right for Gondor's and Arnor's thrones, than any of Elendil's descendants! In this way his war with Arnor has had more personal reasons .
I found strange discrepancies in the data of some Numenorian Kings. Unfortunately, never had enough time to work on it.

Could you elaborate a little, perhaps in a new tread?
But I don't think that even a king of Numenor had any rights to the thrones of the realms founded by Elendil. Their decendants have, not their ancestors. Or so I believe (actually the case is weird, as in real life one can hardly see Charlemagne disputing the throne of Louis XIV)

04-07-2005, 11:29 AM	#43
CrazySquirrel Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Mirkwood Posts: 796	I think Saruman used his ring to act through Grima (transmit the power of his persuation) and to control orcs. Maybe Grima had a lesser Saruman-made ring that was overlooked. Now that I think on it, Saruman's ring may have lost all the power together with the One, that's why Grima became free and killed Saruman. Or perhaps I am just influenced by Gordis's nazgul-freedom tread Last edited by CrazySquirrel : 04-07-2005 at 11:32 AM.

04-07-2005, 11:32 AM	#44
Last Child of Ungoliant The Intermittent One Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: here and there Posts: 4,671	no, it was potions and minor incantations that grima used, ie: the whisperings of grima. maybe saruman used a ring to control grima, but not to act through him, IMHO

04-07-2005, 12:31 PM	#45
CrazySquirrel Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Mirkwood Posts: 796	Does one really need a ring to control one such as Grima?

04-07-2005, 12:34 PM	#46
Last Child of Ungoliant The Intermittent One Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: here and there Posts: 4,671	oh yes, IMHO grima was an extremely rebellious character, as was shown whengandalf/hobbits/elrond/galadriel/celeborn encountered him and saruman on way home, it was shown that dissent was already growing within him, and of course grima turns completely and kills saruman in the scouring.

04-07-2005, 12:47 PM	#47
CrazySquirrel Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Mirkwood Posts: 796	I think Grima could not have betrayed Saruman if he were ring-controlled I have just read the "Hunt for the ring" in Unf.tales, and there it is written that in Sept 3018 Grima encountered the nazgul after their talk with Saruman. Grima betrayed his master and the WitchKing let him live, because "he percieved that the creature was evil and would make yet more harm to Saruman in the future". By the way, I wonder, was it a prophesy?

04-07-2005, 12:51 PM	#48
Last Child of Ungoliant The Intermittent One Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: here and there Posts: 4,671	most likely, yes, the witchking was, IIRC one of the nazgul descended from black numenoreans, and the people of numenor had a deal of foresight, altho i cant remember which nazgul were descended from easterlings, except Khamul, the Terror of the East, IIRC there were 3 that were black numenoreans before their fall

04-07-2005, 12:57 PM	#49
CrazySquirrel Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Mirkwood Posts: 796	I have always thought the Wikkie was a king of Numenor therefore Isildur's and Aragorn's relative. But I don't remember where I read it

04-07-2005, 12:58 PM	#50
Last Child of Ungoliant The Intermittent One Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: here and there Posts: 4,671	no not a king of numenor, but a king of perhaps Umbar, but of numenorean descent. IIRC

04-07-2005, 01:06 PM	#51
CrazySquirrel Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Mirkwood Posts: 796	But i think he was of the same line as the kings Faramir says "Lords of Numenor" doesn't it mean of the line of Elros? I mean Witchy was a sorcerer, Isildur was also (hasn't he cursed a whole people to wander as spirits), Malbeth the seer was probably kings relative, Aragorn makes prophesy about Gandalf falling in Moria. Wasn't it in the family? Elven-maiar blood?