Good thing that Celegorm was there!!

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Artanis
But do you really think Finrod would have claimed the Silmaril(s)?

Absolutely not. I don't think Finrod had any desire to win, or posess a Silmaril. Good question. What about it Meadhros?

[Lefty Scaevola]

I rather doubt it. While they yet prosecuted the war on Morgoth, the Oathtakers made no attempt to seize the Silmaril from Thingol beyond 'proud and threatening words. Nor would they have the power to do so, either form Doriath or Nargothrond (even given your unfounded assupmtion that the Beren Luthian and the Silmaril would dwell there). No allies from the Union of Maedhros would march with them against either Kingdom, and until Doriath was otherwise destroyed (and the Girdel gone), as in the narative, they would have a hard time deploying what forces they had to West Beleriand. Try marching, with inferior forces past a cranky Thingol who had his magic barrier to protect his forces and mask his movements, as well as much superior numbers (but less sell armed and amored). Nargothrond was itself well fortified, almost certainly since the Brogollach had supirior numbers to the Oathtakers who were badly hurt in that battle and driven off their lands. It has Nolderin warriors, arm, and armor, and was allied to the Sindar in west Beleriand. The Oathtatker would lose there either before or after the Nirnaeth. They we preety much limited to to dealing with the leftovers after someone else had smash either Doriath or Nargothrond.

[Maedhros]

But do you really think Finrod would have claimed the Silmaril(s)?

There was no need to, Finrod had given an oath, and if Beren would have not given the Sil, FF had to protect him because of the Oath.
Notice that I didn't say an attack on Nargothrond rather an attack on their forces, which wouldn't have done any good have they stayed in Nargothrond.

It's funny, all this stuff and zero ideas as to how the might of Nargothrond would have helped Beren and Lúthien gain a Silmaril.

[Lefty Scaevola]

except this:

"Finrod would not comtemplate an insane assualt on Amgband, nor is there any suggestion that he would, but the forces of his Kingdom would have been very useful to take back the Minas Tirith and the pass of Sirion, thus allowing a safe passage of a covert expedition of Beren, Luthian, and support toward Angband, similat to the one they did use, but stronger, less risky, and better supported."

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Maedhros
There was no need to, Finrod had given an oath, and if Beren would have not given the Sil, FF had to protect him because of the Oath.

True enough. But Beren's aim was to bring a Silmaril to Thingol, not to keep for himself. Once the Silmaril was taken from Angband, Beren would have taken the jewel to Doriath by the fastest way. Then Fëanor's sons must have made an assault upon him before he reached the girdle. Would they have managed to do so in time, if they believed his quest to be hopeless?

It's funny, all this stuff and zero ideas as to how the might of Nargothrond would have helped Beren and Lúthien gain a Silmaril.

I see your point. But you bring up so many interesting stray questions yourself, see.

[Maedhros]

Perhaps, one can utilize the similitude found in the rebellion of the Ñoldor in this case.
It was the best possible thing for ME for the Ñoldor to revolt and go fight Melkor.
Morgoth's Ring: Myths Transformed

If we consider the situation after the escape of Morgoth and the reestablishment of his abode in Middle-earth, we shall see that the heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually besieged, and at any rate fully occupied, on the northern fringe of Middle-earth, without provoking him to a frenzy of nihilistic destruction. And in the meanwhile, Men, or the best elements in Mankind, shaking off his shadow, came into contact with a people who had actually seen and experienced the Blessed Realm.
In their association with the warring Eldar Men were raised to their fullest achievable stature, and by the two marriages the transference to them, or infusion into Mankind, of the noblest Elf-strain was accomplished, in readiness for the still distant, but inevitably approaching, days when the Elves would 'fade'.

Perhaps too, it was the best thing that Celegorm and Curufin were there at that time because while their deeds were not good, the outcome of their events achieved the seeds of the ultimate downfall of he, who arises in Might.

[Elemmírë]

*bump*

Just a couple of comments.

Actually, I think Maedhros might have a point. It seems to me that Finrod was planning some sort of crazy assault on Angband. From the Grey Annals:

But he kept his oath, and would have mustered all his host for the service of Beren, vain though all his strength must be in such a venture.

Wild, reckless, and suicidal. Seems almost a requirement of being in the House of Finwë, doesn’t it? Of course, it’s impossible to know what the outcome of such a venture would have been. LotR tells us that even the craziest of plans can succeed…

Though, as horrible as it sounds, I don’t see how it could have been worse for Nargothrond if the host had been lost. After all, the fighting host and the entire population are two different things. Gwindor never would have brought any force to the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, which would have probably been better… Turin’s stay in Nargothrond would have been much different also, and I can’t see that story playing out in the same manner.

Originally Posted by Maedhros

The failure or not to rescue Finrod is a small thing (except to SHG)...

Well… to me too. And, I’d hazard to guess, to much of Beleriand. He was hardly a minor player in the politics of Beleriand. Who else had the desire – much less ability – to cooperate with just about all the different people and races?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Artanis

Then Fëanor's sons must have made an assault upon him before he reached the girdle. Would they have managed to do so in time, if they believed his quest to be hopeless?

I very much doubt that. Beren had evaded the capture of Morgoth servant's for quite a long time. If he can do that then I'd guess he could evade the capture of the Fëanorians long enough to get to Doriath.

[Attalus]

I, too, think that a woodsman like Beren would have found it easy enough to evade the sons of Fëanor, even if they had known of the success of his quest and conducted a search for them. It is hard to imagine that the defeat of the army of Nargothond would have been nearly as bad as what Glaurung did to them, and it never would have happened if Finrod had still been King, because he was wise enough not to listen to Turin. Dumb butt. Be that as it may, I literally cannot imagine any situation where the presence of Celegorm or Curufin would have made matters better, except at their hangings.

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by Attalus

Be that as it may, I literally cannot imagine any situation where the presence of Celegorm or Curufin would have made matters better, except at their hangings.

I second that.

Could you imagine Celegorm as King of Nargothrond? Orodreth was hardly a model alternative, but at least he wasn't eagerly seeking war against Doriath... And Thingol was about ready to make war on a Feanorian Nargothrond too...

Good thing Celegorm and Curufin got kicked out, I say, before they managed to make matters even worse...

[Embladyne]

Originally Posted by Attalus

I literally cannot imagine any situation where the presence of Celegorm or Curufin would have made matters better, except at their hangings.

As much as I try to have an open mind...I just can't see any of their actions as beneficial. I wish they had died sooner.

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by Embladyne

As much as I try to have an open mind...

Why bother?

[Embladyne]

Originally Posted by Elemmire

Why bother?

good point. I just like to be able to say "I tried"...but then that means I have to say "I failed"