Fingon the valiant?

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by Durin1

Artanis, although you are correct to point out that "kano" is more clearly interpreted as "commander/commanding", I would argue that it could also denote as valiant in a generalised sense (as many of Tolkien's words do).

...although i'll stand corrected if I am totally wrong!

But Turgon was Turukano... and I don't remember hearing him referred to as "the Valiant"

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Maybe some vailent acts during the firts kinslaying.

*shudders* That is an interpretation...

My thoughts on the matter (and I definitely could be wrong here) are that he was not called "Fingon the Valiant" in Valinor. First of all, Fingon wasn't a name he used until coming to Beleriand, so the use of the Sindarised forms of the names in the first part of the Silmarillion is obviously something that would have been added afterwards. Is it so impossible that the title was added afterwards as well, in response to deeds he did not yet do (such as the rescue of Maedhros) that were, all the same, known to whoever was recounting the story?

[Pytt]

I've heard the cliff-diving idea too, there is a picture on Elfwood showing this scene isn't there? Done by the same artist who drew that amazing picture of Fëanor, Nerdanel, and the brats? I like the idea, especially when put in the context of her artwork. Very cool.

I have heard about the cliff diving idea before, but I haven't seen the picture mentioned. anyone knows where to find it?

it is so long since I have read the Sil, so I don't remember Fingon, and not what he did. but the idea of some great hunting don't seem so bad.

Edit.

I didn't remember if he got to Beleriand, or not. but when seeing Elemmires post, I think maybe she is right. that he got the name 'valiant' after comeing to Beleriand, rather than earn it in Valinor. but I am a bit tempted about the cliffdiving idea also.

[Elemmírë]

A yes, another one of Jenny Dolfen's pictures, right here if no-one has given the link before. By the way, is there any real evidence for that, or is it just a random theory created by the artist? Anyone know?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Pytt

I didn't remember if he got to Beleriand, or not. but when seeing Elemmires post, I think maybe she is right. that he got the name 'valiant' after comeing to Beleriand, rather than earn it in Valinor. but I am a bit tempted about the cliffdiving idea also.

But he was called that by Meadhros before he enter Beleriand.

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

But he was called that by Meadhros before he enter Beleriand.

I think you have missed Elemmire's point. If I understand her right, she thinks that the narrator of the story that we know as the Quenta Silmarillion did not give us the exact words of Maedhros, because at that time he would obviously not have used the Sindarin name "Fingon", he would have used the Quenya "Findekáno". And therefore, the title "valiant" may have been an invention of the narrator too, since the title or nickname often is mentioned in connection with the name of a person, as in Beren Camlost or Erchamion, Beleg Cuthalion, Morwen Eledhwen, Idril Celebrindal, Húrin Thalion. This is a perfectly valid theory, though I like Durin's suggestion better.

Originally Posted by Elemmire

A yes, another one of Jenny Dolfen's pictures, right here if no-one has given the link before. By the way, is there any real evidence for that, or is it just a random theory created by the artist? Anyone know?

There's no textual evidence for Dolfen's idea. We do know from the description of Galadriel in Valinor that she soon became "a match for the athletes of the Eldar", so they did engage in some form of sport. But from there to cliff-diving ... well, well.

[Elemmírë]

Yes, Artanis. That's what I was trying to say.

Originally Posted by Durin1

I just remembered something from the HoMe series about Galadriel and her "other" names. It is stated (in Customs of the Eldar, I think) that from an early age Elves were given their "true" names but also a surname according to some premonition, of sorts, most especially given by the mother. Perhaps when he was born Fingon was given the name "valiant" to denote some sort of "quality" within him that was identified early in childhood, or even at birth?

Hm. That's a good one too.

I personally think it more likely that Findekáno was the father name... My only support for this, however, is that almost all of their father names had some version of the name Finwë in it (it seems that someone was trying to prove something)...

For example, we know that Fëanor gave (I think) all of his sons names like Nelyafinwë and Curufinwë... And then there's Findaráto, which is a father name...

It's pure conjecture, but I'd guess that Findekáno was the father name.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Artanis

I think you have missed Elemmire's point. If I understand her right, she thinks that the narrator of the story that we know as the Quenta Silmarillion did not give us the exact words of Maedhros, because at that time he would obviously not have used the Sindarin name "Fingon", he would have used the Quenya "Findekáno". And therefore, the title "valiant" may have been an invention of the narrator too, since the title or nickname often is mentioned in connection with the name of a person, as in Beren Camlost or Erchamion, Beleg Cuthalion, Morwen Eledhwen, Idril Celebrindal, Húrin Thalion. This is a perfectly valid theory, though I like Durin's suggestion better.

That statement was direct at Pytt.

Yet I don't think that Tolkien wrote the Sil like that, as he did with the hobbit.
Does it not say that Fingon was at the head of Fingolfin's people during the kinslaying, so it could be that he hepled Meadhros out of a tight situation.

[Elemmírë]

Of the Flight of the Noldor:

...but the vanguard of the Noldor were succoured by Fingon with the foremost of the host of Fingolfin, who coming up found a battle joined and their own kin falling, and rushed in before they knew rightly the cause of the quarrel...

Yes, TD. You are correct.

Though there is a difference, in my mind, between Maedhros considering Fingon valiant and the rest of the Noldor believing it as well...

...And somehow I doubt that Maedhros was the one who recounted the tales of the First Age...

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Well where does it say that the Noldor didn't regard Fingon as valient?

[Elemmírë]

Ah. Now you are misunderstanding me.

As far as I know, the Noldor all do regard him as valiant. However, I don't know how many, other than the Fëanorians, would consider him valiant for kinslaying.

This is why I believe it was most likely not at Alqualondë where he earned the title.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Although it doesn't say they didn't regard him as valient, it never says that they did. If only Meadhros says it at that time then maybe the Noldor did or didn't know him as that.

[Elemmírë]

Now I'm confused.

Are you trying to argue that Fingon was called the Valiant simply because Maedhros considered him valiant?

I don't think that argument is very stable... but I also don't think it's what you were trying to say.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

It is, but is Fingon called 'the valient' anywhere else? I don't think he is but if I'm wrong then I'm sorry. But Maedhros referred to Fingon as 'the valiant' shortly after Fingon had saved Maedhros, his brothers and his father.

[Elemmírë]

Now I understand.

OK. I've looked up the name Fingon in the index (where he is called The Valiant as well ) and there are more references than solely when Maedhros calles him "Fingon the valiant."

Then Fingon the valiant, son of Fingolfin, resolved to heal the feud that divided the Noldor...

(Concerning his rescue of Maedhros)

Actually... I think that is the only other reference, unless I missed one...

*leafing through text again for references to Fingon and "valiant"*

Slightly OT... hey! How did Maeglin get to be called "valiant" at any part of the Silm...

[Artanis]

Findekáno Astaldo Ñolofinwion!

Originally Posted by Elemmire

Slightly OT... hey! How did Maeglin get to be called "valiant" at any part of the Silm...

Well, he was valiant. Fell and fearless in battle, it says too. He fought beside Turgon in the Nirnaeth.

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by Artanis

Findekáno Astaldo Ñolofinwion!

So I was right! Hm. So Astaldo is his mother name? That means Valiant, right? My dictionary says so. That gives Durin's theory more weight.

Originally Posted by Artanis

Well, he was valiant. Fell and fearless in battle, it says too. He fought beside Turgon in the Nirnaeth.

*grudgingly*

I can't gainsay that...

But we all know how very valiant he was in front of Morgoth...

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by Elemmire

So Astaldo is his mother name?

No no! There is no evidence for that. But it sounds good, doesn't it?

[Elemmírë]

Very good.

But stop confusing me...

Do you speak Quenya, btw? You sure like the names.

In my...20 days here , I don't think I've "spoken" with you much yet...

[Pytt]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

But he was called that by Meadhros before he enter Beleriand.

Ok, as I have said before it's realy a long time since I've read the Sils.