what do their names mean?

[afro-elf]

'Morinehtar'; 'Darkness-slayer'

that was from Inoldonil

WOW that is a COOL name.

It is Quenya?

was it alatar's(sp) name and what does alatar mean

what are the meanings of the other istari

gandalf= elf of the wand/ mithrandir= grey pilgram

I was on a site last night looking to create my own character's name. I believe the Noldar adopted sinarian names when they came. I think the reason being that it would seem arrogant to use the common speech then be called by foreign name. so I only searched sindarian.


did they only use sindarian names or did they use quenya also

is word order flexible in elvish

ex. 'Morinehtar'; 'Darkness-slayer'

can it also be "slayer of darkness." or if I change it would it be slayer-darkness


Is there a site that list meaning of names and in which language.

[Wayfarer]

Well...

I can't tell you anything about morinehtar. Actually. I can, but i won't, because I'm avoiding verbosity.

Alatar and pallando... I should know but i'm drawing a blank.

Dieder willis has a sindarin traslator and dictionary. The vocabulary is much more extensive than even ardalambion.

it can be found here

As far as word order, i think it is flexible in some instances.

For example: Eru and Ersaeliphant both use the root/prefix Er. Since it's a prefix, it goes where?

There are many instances of word parts... mor, ar, dor, etc... that occur in a specefic position in compounds.

'Dor' for example, occurs as a separate word in 'Dor-daeloth' and as a combination in 'Gondor'. Notice that with a seperator, it occurs in a position that it can't have in a compound. So 'Dorgond' wouldn't work but Dor-Gond would.

I think. I'm not sure if the professor published anything on this, but I think it's implied.

For the most part, you should try to keep to the word order (of the english translation) as closely as possible. If the direct translation shounds dumb in english... it would probobly sound dumb in elvish.

[Darth Tater]

http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/index.html

[Ñólendil]

'Alatar' and 'Pallando' were the earlier names of the Blue Wizards (when it was Tolkien's belief that they failed) later replaced by 'Morinehtar' and either 'Romenstámo' or 'Rome(n)star'. The meanings of Alatar and Pallando I think are unknown, though I think they mean something like 'Great (large in size) Day' and 'Widely woven night'. Morinehtar, Romenstámo, Alatar and Pallando all belong to Quenya. Gandalf's Quenderin (adj., 'belonging to Quenya') name was Olórin (as is revealed to Faramir, and by Faramir to Frodo). The meaning is obscure, but Tolkien says it's associated with 'olos/r'='dream' in the Elvish sense, nearer to 'phantasy' by mortal reckoning. It referred to his ability to set fair visions in the hearts and minds of others (as is mentioned in the Valaquenta in the Silmarillion), which was enhanced when he received Narya in Middle-earth.* Saruman's name was Curumo (a masculine name which means 'Cunning (one)') = to Sindarin CurunÃ*r and Old English Saruman. Radagast's Quenderin name was Aiwendil, which means 'lover (or friend) of birds' (for their own sake).

I believe the Noldar adopted sinarian names when they came. I think the reason being that it would seem arrogant to use the common speech then be called by foreign name.

The Common Speech did not exist until the Third Age. Sindarin was the most widely spoken tongue in Beleriand when the Noldor arrived. They were linguists and enjoyed learning other tongues, but they were also exiles and though they never forgot Quenya they felt they should speak as those of Middle-earth. But the chief reason for their large adoption of Sindarin and the 'translation' (more or less) of their names was Thingol's command. When he found out about the Kinslaying he declared that the tongue of those who slew his kin (the Teleri of Valinor), and the tongue of the kin of those who slew his kin would not be heard while his authority lasted.

All Grey-elves were forbidden to respond or to speak the Ancient Tongue. Thus was it preserved as a tongue of lore. They used Quenya among themselves. In later Ages it was spoken freely by the High-Elves, where they dwelt. A great internal history of the tongue can be found here on the Ardalambion.

Morinehtar can indeed be translated 'slayer of darkness'. 'Morin' is the element that means 'darkness'. Quenya liked to place the adjectival element first, while Telerin and Sindarin did the opposite, though in none of these Eldarin languages was this obligatory.

The Ardalambion is the linguistic site I always use, it can be found by using the Useful Links link in my signature (a site that was put together by Xanthyz). [Edited: Or in Darth's above post ]

Thanks for the link Wayfarer!

*Although Gandalf was supposed to be of the people of Manwe and Varda, one text names him a counsellor to Irmo, Mandos' younger brother in the mind of Eru, the master of visions and dreams.

[Agburanar]

Wasn't Pallando purple according to the Wizard's CCG? Although Pallando the Purple sounds a bit too corny to be Tolkienesque!

[rashbold]

Let me add my two cents' worth on the Alatar/Morinehtar and Pallando/Rómestamo. There was considerable discussion on the etymology of Alatar and Pallando in the virtually defunct TolkLang email discussion group and its successor Elfling. The best explanation on Pallando at least is that it is a compound of palan "far" + lando by haplology, the latter element a personalized masculine form of landa "wide", thus a tentative meaning would be "one who travels far and wide". Alatar, on the other hand is a bit more obscure: it may be that it is related to the Quenya word ñalta "radiance, glittering reflection", Telerin alata, Sindarin galad. Morinehtar, the later name of Alatar, means as attested "Dark Slayer", with the elements mori- (more) "black" and nehtar, "slayer", the latter element being related to -(n)dacil "victor" (stem NDAK). The last element of Rómestamo, "helper" seems to be derived from a stem *STA "help". I do not know if this related to the stem ATHAJA "helpful, beneficial" > Quenya asea (cf. (lasse) asea aranion "beneficial leaf of the kings", adapted to Sindarin as athelas), but it seems phonologically possible.

[Agburanar]

Wow! You don't get that on TV!

[Kirinki54]

We had a brown, a white and a grey wizard... Then there were two blue. (From those we know of.) There is a 'harmony' of colors among the three, but then BLUE?

From what I saw somewhere long ago, when the Vikings encountered people with dark skin ('black') apparently they did not used the term black but instead they called them (in the then Nordic tongues) 'blue-men'.

Could Tolkien have used this way of naming? Then Alatar and Pallando would be in fact black, which would harmonize with their probable fates? (See Black Numenorans for example.)

Guessing is fun!

[afro-elf]

From what I saw somewhere long ago, when the Vikings encountered people with dark skin ('black') apparently they did not used the term black but instead they called them (in the then Nordic tongues) 'blue-men'.

Hum...for obvious reasons that sounds good to me!!!

I've got some friends form sweden I'll ask them and see what they say

[Agburanar]

It sounds good. Many of the races in LotR seem to have origins in the Vikings, much more than than they do in Greek, Roman or British warriors. The men of Gondor and Dwarves particularly seem Norse whilst the Woses seem like American indians and the orcs and men of Mordor seem to have some origins in British history.

[Ñólendil]

I don't think by 'blue' Tolkien was referring to their skin (as black), for he said that they were clad in sea-blue. That is not to say that they were not swarthy, we don't know much about what they looked like. Anyway Tolkien also said (before he realized what colour they wore, or their names, or that they were successful) that the two Wizards of the East needed no distinct colours because they did not inhabit the same close, (comparatively) small region as the other three. 'Blue' does seem to be quite different from 'brown', 'grey' and 'white', but that is perhaps fitting. After all, the Luin Istari had a different mission and came to Middle-earth in an earlier Age. Why Wizards of Oromë should be clad in sea-blue is still something I'm trying to figure out.

Morinehtar, the later name of Alatar, means as attested "Dark Slayer", with the elements mori- (more) "black" and nehtar, "slayer", the latter element being related to -(n)dacil "victor" (stem NDAK).

Isn't morin + nehtar more likely, since Tolkien translated the name as Darkness slayer?

[afro-elf]

the blue wizards preceeded the others?

[Ñólendil]

Yep. Tolkien decided during the last years of his life that the Blue Wizards came to Middle-earth around the same time as Glorfindel, around the time of the Year of Dread (1600) in the Second Age, when the One Ring was forged.

[rashbold]

Quote:
Isn't morin + nehtar more likely, since Tolkien translated the name as Darkness slayer?

Nope. It's mori- nehtar. I have never seen any derivative from the Common Eldarin stem MOR like morin-. But maybe you mean mornië instead. The element mori does exist, which is the stem form of morë "black". Tolkien was sometimes liberal in his glosses.

[Ñólendil]

You know better than I, I am no linguist.

I perceive now that I had indeed seen 'mornië' on the Ardalambion Quenya Corpus Wordlist, but thought I remembered 'morin' instead for 'darkness' when I first read Morinehtar in PoMe.

'Dark Slayer' and 'Darkness Slayer' may be taken to have different senses. Maybe Tolkien translated it as 'Darkness-slayer' because he wanted any readers to know that the first word (in the translation) was meant as a noun and not as an adjective.

[Agburanar]

Didn't Glorfindel and the leves wear blue as well? Maybe it was the fashion that summer!