By land, air, and sea!

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Michael Martinez

Tolkien was under no obligation to anticipate and debunk every nonsense argument years in advance.

Then why not close down this Tolkien board, and all the others? After all, Tolkien was under no obligation to anticipate and debunk all the theories that everyone on all these boards are discussing, so of what use is it to ask questions and debate? If we follow your logic here, none.

More to the point, while you might disagree with the idea or suggestion (and so do I), you have yet to prove or establish anything regarding its absurdity. This might be your opinion and you're entitled to it, but you are not stating it as your opinion, but rather as a categorical truth.

Anyway, your statement here has little to do with the argument. You claim that the citation Olmer quoted doesn't say that Elrond's messenger's initiated contact--true enough it doesn't. But it also does not say that the Eagles initiated contact which is your contention against Olmer's suggestion. Plainly the citation doesn't support your contention; but it does show that before the Fellowship left, there had been contact between Elrond's reps and the Eagles and IF the Eagles wanted to help or could be asked to help, that contact makes that scenario possible. There are other reasons why the Eagles wouldn't or couldn't be an option, but "lack of contact" or "lack of an ability to contact" (which seem to be your position) isn't it.

Finally, on this statement, I'll note that you ignored the context of the citation, so I'll take it that that argument stands, thanks.

If you want to take up the banner for having Elrond (during the Council) get on the Bat-phone to contact the Eagles, feel free to cite a passage where he initiates contact with the Eagles (which was my original request).

I've been very clear in my position throughout my posts in this thread. To reiterate, it is that the idea of using the Eagles is not an absurdity. It was not a real possibility within the confines of the story, but is not an absurdity to ask and explore. So no banner toting, derisive, fallacious logic needed; just good old fashioned reasoned argument with citations from the text.

In your post of Oct. 03, you didn't make a request, you made an assumption: that contact with the Eagles and asking their help could not be done AT THE COUNCIL, and so no other time could be used, and that the Eagles were outside Gandalf's mission (being only to Men and Elves in that post). Both of these assumptions are incorrect.

First, it isn't necessary to restrict the time to the Council itself. The only thing decided at the Council was that the only real hope lay in destruction of the Ring in the fires in which it was made and Frodo volunteering to carry it. The idea of a "Fellowship" and its construction was decided later, in fact AFTER the scouts had returned and AFTER contact with the Eagles had been made.

Second, the very quote from UT that you provided shows that Gandalf's mission was to unite ALL those who would stand against Sauron, so unless you want to argue that the Eagles didn't want to or that Sauron would not have sought to dominate them, then Gandalf's mission extends to them too. QED.

The passage cited above in no way indicates that Elrond's messengers initiated contact with the Eagles. And it certainly doesn't show how the Council of Elrond could have contacted the Eagles, much less asked them to carry the Ring to Mordor.

This is an unnecessary condition. Why would it be necessary for Elrond or his messengers to initiate contact? As long as contact is made, that is all that is necessary to make the request that the Eagles be involved. Whether they would have or not is a different question.

Second, you're supposing that Elrond had no way of making contact, and assuming that the Eagles initiated the contact with the messengers. YOu need to prove that contention or drop it from your argument. IF Elrond's messengers initiated that contact, and the text doesn't say one way or the other, then Elrond obviously had a way of making contact. AND if he didn't, certainly Galadriel did, for Gwahir tells us that she commanded him to find Gandalf and bring him to Lothlorien, unless of course you want to try and argue that the Eagles were in the habit of dropping by Lothlorien for a bit of tea now and then.

Finally, I will point out that the Fellowship was formed AFTER the Council, and AFTER contact with the Eagles, there was nothing preventing the Eagles' being asked to be involved either at that point, or when the Fellowship is in Lothlorien.


End Part I
FB

[Forkbeard]

Part II

Wrong again. See above. In order for it to be possible that "the request could be made", you need to show that A) they had the means to communicate with the Eagles (and they clearly did not)

Prove it, don't assert it like its the Gospel. They obviously did have means as I've already pointed out.
As for being wrong, let me quote Tolkien again for you: "to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt." Sounds like the Eagles would be involved in that description; if not, you need to prove it.

and B) that they had the right to ask the Eagles to undertake such a journey (and Elrond specifically denied having the right to request that anyone make such a journey, much less the Eagles).

They had no right to ask anyone unless they were willing. So why not ask the Eagles if they were willing? Its a valid question, not an absurd one.


On the question of efficient communication, after selectively snipping,

Odd, how those 30 Dunedain showed up in Rohan, isn't it? That's pretty danged efficient in my book. Aragorn didn't even have to send for them.

Nope, not at all. Considering that in approximately 3 weeks the Fellowship went from Rivendell to Caradhras on foot, in winter, traveling often at night surely a group of men on horses in haste can cover the distance from Rivendell to the Gap in the same time. We don't know when or how Galadriel sent word (it was she after all who told Gandalf to tell Aragorn to remember the Dunedain, and so it can be assumed that she sent the summons in his name), but figuring she did so as the Fellowship was leaving Lothlorien, and didn't use magical means or an eagle, that gives an elf on a swift horse 10 days to get to Rivendell, or the Shire depending on where Hal was found, gather 30 men and light provisions, and another 10 days to get to the Gap. Entirely possible, but not lightning quick and efficient either.

Amazing how Gandalf was able to assist Frodo in resisting the Ring's influence enough to take it off while he sat atop Amon Hen as Sauron searched for him, isn't it? That's pretty danged efficient in my book.

How is that "efficient", and Gandalf's post "sent back" abilities are hardly normal Middle Earth activity. And he didn't "assist", he sent a mental message, assistance of a kind I suppose.

Curious how Denethor knew about the movements of Gandalf and company in Rohan, isn't it? Seems rather efficient to me.

Had you not so precipitously snipped my last post you would have seen the following statement: "Efficiency isn't really possible in Middle Earth, save in circumstances such as huge flying beasts such as the Nazgul ride that can cover the distance from Mordor to Orthanc in a matter of hours; or through means of the Palantir." Since we know that Denethor knew about those movements through that means, it is excluded for consideration by my statement. Thanks.

Quite stunning, how the Woses and some of the Rohirrim understood that the wind was changing just before the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, isn't it? The timing of Aragorn's arrival on that fateful is pretty darned efficient, too.

Which has nothing to do with communication with Eagles or anyone else, the topic under consideration. This that you cite here is called foreshadowing, and may be an efficient tool on the part of the author, but hardly proves anything about efficient communication within the confines of Middle Earth.

Communication and coordination were achieved with amazing efficiency despite the lack of time, technology, and resources.

Thanks for disproving your own point. If you recall you were saying that since Elrond didn't have his Batphone plugged into the patio at Rivendell during the Council, he couldn't just call up the Eagles and pass the time of day before asking them to solve the world's problem. You have gone on to say that because of that lack of efficiency and the scouts taking two months to take a look-see and so on, that there was no way to contact the Eagles. Now you tell us that communication and coordination were achieved with amazing efficiency, in spite of lack of time, technology, and resources......so that being so, there is no reason why Elrond could NOT have been in touch with the Eagles since lack of time, technology, or resources were obviously not the problem!!!!!!!!! SO thanks, the establishes that possibility, and now perhaps we can address Olmer's suggestion about the eagles with valid reasons why the eagles couldn't or wouldn't be involved rather than just dismiss it as an absurdity.

FB

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Michael Martinez

The only "they" I mentioned, obviously.

You didn't mention a "they", hence the question for clarification.

And there is no textual evidence of any contact between Elrond's messengers and the Eagles of the Misty Mountains.

Yes there is, Olmer has already cited it. YOu may disagree about whether or not Elrond's messengers initiated contact, but it is very, very clearly evidence of contact.

In fact, all contact between Eagles and everyone OTHER than Radagast was stipulated by Tolkien to be iniiated by the Eagles themselves.

Stipulated? Where does Tolkien stipulate this?

And in fact, the example of Galadriel suggests otherwise.

Which is NOT TO coordinate.

You're still missing the forest for the trees. You stated that Gandalf's mission was to help Men and Elves resist Sauron and so therefore the Eagle's were outside his "professional" relationship. This, by your own citation of UT, is false: according to that citation Gandalf's mision included all those whom Sauron "would endeavour to dominate and corrupt", which includes the Eagles, making them part of Gandalf's "professional" mission. Ok, so he wasn't to "coordinate", just SEEK TO UNITE them all in love, at least according to Tolkien. So, to quote you, "Since I'm not disagreeing with Tolkien, obviously, you are in the wrong".

Wrong again. The "why" is never in plain sight, since we don't know why Tolkien made the choices he made except where he explained himself.

YOu once again are missing the point. The question is not why Tolkien did this or that, but why from within the story the Eagles are not utilized in the effort to get rid of the Ring. If you don't think that valid reasons for this non-use are given in the text of the LoTR but rather rest solely in the mind of Tolkien, then why are you claiming reasons from within the story? Seems contradictory to me. So you still need to provide valid reasons why this is an absurdity, and better reasons for why the Eagles weren't used. You might want to read over the thread, some very good suggestions along the latter line have been made by various people.

And he never anticipated the need to address the question of why the Eagles didn't fly the Ring to Mount Doom and drop it in.

So? That doesn't excuse the characterization of a perfectly good question as "absurd" or to claim that the reasons why it is absurd are in plain sight and have no need to be articulated, nor that, when we get down to the question itself, that the reasons why the Eagles were not a viable part of the Fellowship should not be just as carefully articulated.

FB

[trolls' bane]

I'm too lazy right now to read all of that and you've already convinced me you're right. Whatever you were right about I have yet to read.

[Nurvingiel]

Is all we're discussing at this point whether or not FBs question was absurd? Of course it wasn't! I think the answer is no, but that does not mean it was a dumb question.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Is all we're discussing at this point whether or not FBs question was absurd? Of course it wasn't! I think the answer is no, but that does not mean it was a dumb question.

Actually it was Olmer's suggestion in his POV. I think there were good responses to him earlier in the thread by you, Attalus, even I chimed in. But his point was neither absurd, nor would it not work for any of the reasons MM has proposed.

[Nurvingiel]

Oh, oops. Well it still wasn't absurd.

But that is a Moot point, as they say.

[Fat middle]

Well, if this thread wasn't absurd at the begining, it is certainly begining to be it.

Everybody have agreed about the topic, so I'm closing this.

If anybody is interested in further discussions about the concept of absurdity he/she is welcome to beging a thread at GM

... but remember to make a search first. I suspect it may have been done before