Were the Elves allies to Gondor?

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Michael Martinez

... although Elrond did propose sending a couple members of his household along as members of the Fellowship.

It was not a proposal, it was a lame suggestion Had I a host of Elves...it would awail a little".

Originally Posted by Michael Martinez

However, they made the conscious decision, or the strategic choice, to do nothing at Elrond's council, because they believed that secrecy would serve everyone's purpose better in the long run.

Agree. It was a strategic decision to do nothing, to postpone the Ring destruction by sending the fellowship on long and dangerous quest instead of enlisting help of the lesser wizard and make the hobbits to be delivered by the eagles to the entrance of the Mount Doom in the matter of hours unharmed and without the life-time lasting nervous break-down.

Originally Posted by Michael Martinez

The elements of the world depicted by Tolkien are not nearly as complete as the elements of the story he told, but we cannot supplement his elements with our own.

In mine view the elements of the stories, told by Tolkien ,are not nearly as complete as the world he had "glimpsed" and tried to depict, because he simply did not have enough time to oversee all connections.
Yes , we can do an implication, but they should be well based on Tolkien's words, then it woun't be a "rewriting", but a logical projection of JRRT ideas.

Originally Posted by Michael Martinez

If anything, absence of denial proves how hopeless an argument is, if that is all it can offer in the way of proof of anything.

Cann't agree more on that!!

Originally Posted by Valandil

And Olmer... hopefully at least your prior posts will set the stage for you, so you don't have to repeat everything again.

Thank for your support.This link is really making my life easier, because for uninformed reader it's really difficult to grasp the whole big picture which I'm trying to "paint".

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Olmer

It was not a proposal, it was a lame suggestion Had I a host of Elves...it would awail a little".

It was a proposal. He proposed to fill the reamining two positions of the the Fellowship (Merry and Pippins) to be filled by members of his own household.

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Agree. It was a strategic decision to do nothing, to postpone the Ring destruction by sending the fellowship on long and dangerous quest instead of enlisting help of the lesser wizard and make the hobbits to be delivered by the eagles to the entrance of the Mount Doom in the matter of hours unharmed and without the life-time lasting nervous break-down.

Rhadagast the Brown, if that is the "lesser wizard" of whom you speak, had no power over the Great Eagles, who were the servants of Manwe. *Sigh*

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

It was a proposal. He proposed to fill the reamining two positions of the the Fellowship (Merry and Pippins) to be filled by members of his own household.

Oh, yes, sorry, he CONSIDER this , but seems to me did not insist on it too much.
"It's a dangerous road. The evil Nine Riders will be agaist you. You will face a lot of perils.You can't replace the skillfull in fights, strong and wise Elves which will protect Frodo from the harm and made his quest successful. I forsee that the two bumbling hobbits will seriously undermine the whole idea of the quest's speed and secrecy... "
"But we want to go!"..
"O'key!"

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Attalus

Rhadagast the Brown, if that is the "lesser wizard" of whom you speak, had no power over the Great Eagles, who were the servants of Manwe. *Sigh*

They were created by Manwe and Yavanna, and they were charged to aid Elves and Men against Morgoth and did so in the first age.
It's no secret that Radagast was getting along with birds and animals of the Middle-earth. So the fact that they were "under the management" of Manwe does not exclude that they wouldn't listen to Radagast.
Gandalf asked him to enlist the help of them to spy on "anything that bears the matter on Sauron's moves" and bring the news to the Orthank.
"And the Eagles of the mountains went far and wide, and they saw many things...and they send a messenger to bring these tidings" , which happened to be Gwaihir himself.
Just to set the matter straight.*Sigh*

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by Olmer

They were created by Manwe and Yavanna, and they were charged to aid Elves and Men against Morgoth and did so in the first age.
It's no secret that Radagast was getting along with birds and animals of the Middle-earth. So the fact that they were "under the management" of Manwe does not exclude that they wouldn't listen to Radagast.
Gandalf asked him to enlist the help of them to spy on "anything that bears the matter on Sauron's moves" and bring the news to the Orthank.
"And the Eagles of the mountains went far and wide, and they saw many things...and they send a messenger to bring these tidings" , which happened to be Gwaihir himself.
Just to set the matter straight.*Sigh*

The Eagles didn't listen only to Radagast; and I think it'd be wrong to say that Gandalf needed Radagast to get in touch with the Eagles. It would be much faster to go straight to the Eagles, instead of going to Radagast, who's further, and wasn't at home, IIRC, when Elrond's messengers came to Rosgobel. Tehre was no need in Radagast there.

[Michael Martinez]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Agree. It was a strategic decision to do nothing, to postpone the Ring destruction by sending the fellowship on long and dangerous quest instead of enlisting help of the lesser wizard and make the hobbits to be delivered by the eagles to the entrance of the Mount Doom in the matter of hours unharmed and without the life-time lasting nervous break-down.

Surely, you're jesting.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Gandalf just asked Radagast to ask for the help of all beasts and birds he was 'friends' with. They didn't have to help but they did.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Michael Martinez

Surely, you're jesting.

Hmm... we get that from some now and then, but I've never seen Olmer advocating THAT before!

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Olmer

They were created by Manwe and Yavanna, and they were charged to aid Elves and Men against Morgoth and did so in the first age.
It's no secret that Radagast was getting along with birds and animals of the Middle-earth. So the fact that they were "under the management" of Manwe does not exclude that they wouldn't listen to Radagast.
Gandalf asked him to enlist the help of them to spy on "anything that bears the matter on Sauron's moves" and bring the news to the Orthank.
"And the Eagles of the mountains went far and wide, and they saw many things...and they send a messenger to bring these tidings" , which happened to be Gwaihir himself.
Just to set the matter straight.*Sigh*

The Eagles of the Mountains are still not under Rhadaghast's control. I'm sure he merely made the suggestion/ asked for help.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Attalus

The Eagles of the Mountains are still not under Rhadaghast's control. I'm sure he merely made the suggestion/ asked for help.

You are too hotheaded for a surgeon...
Just take a deep breath and read the previous posting of Telcontar Dunedain.

Originally Posted by Valandil

I've never seen Olmer advocating THAT before!

You will be surprised, my friend....

Originally Posted by Michael Martinez

Surely, you're jesting.

Not just jesting,
but suggesting...

But we veered away from the main theme.
As Halbarad the Dunedain smartly noted, that besides the Elves there had been "manish" allies, who did not answer to Gondor's plea and did not come to fight .
Actually, considering the chart of Gondor's manpower in compareness with Sauron's (I gave it in the reply to Halbarad the Dunedain) you woud say that Gondor's invasion politics finally brought their fruits, and at the end of the Third age they left with very few who would streach out the hand of help to them .

[Durin1]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Actually, considering the chart of Gondor's manpower in compareness with Sauron's (I gave it in the reply to Halbarad the Dunedain) you woud say that Gondor's invasion politics finally brought their fruits, and at the end of the Third age they left with very few who would streach out the hand of help to them .

Invasion Politics They "invade" the Harad and the lands near Umbar. They did not invade the Free Peoples of the West of ME who would have been their natural allies.

It should be made clear: Nobody except the Rohirrim "stretch out the hands of help" because there is nobody to do so! The world of ME is not confined solely to Gondor you know. Lorien had its own problems; the Ents help in their own way for their own reasons; Mirkwood Elves are fighting in the North, so too are Erebor and Dale; Imladris is just a great big house, a refuge not a big, populated City!! that can send thousands of warriors!; Eriador is scarcely populated and the Rangers are few and have their own responsibilities.

Also, we know (from Unfinished Tales) that Sauron's strategy changed according to circumstance. He believes that the Ring will travel to Minas Tirith. The fact is we don't know what path the fellowship would have tread if Gandalf hadn't fallen in Moria.

In terms of lack of population, that was a result of mainly defensive wars, not imperial agression.

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Olmer

You are too hotheaded for a surgeon...
Just take a deep breath and read the previous posting of Telcontar Dunedain.

Me, hotheaded? At least I don't always have a scrub nurse crying outside the door of my O.R. every week like someone I know does.

[Earniel]

I relocated the posts concerning using the Eagles as transportation to the thread: by land, air, and sea!