Were the Elves allies to Gondor?

[Olmer]

[EDIT by Eärniel]This discussion is split off the thread Free will versus destiny as it deserved its own thread. [/EDIT]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

And I would also say that given Sauron's plan, the Elves staying and protecting their own lands was exactly right: Sauron divided his forces and fought on too many fronts instead of the crushing blow on Gondor first, then pick off the others piece by piece.
FB

Considering that Sauron was not such an idiot to fight in too many places at once, and that Dol Guldur was not a major stronghold and had been keeping over there a couple of garrisons at most, not the army, it had to be a good reason to send the Dol Guldur's orcs on self - destruction mission.

The matter is that after Mordor’s intrusion in Osgiliath the existence of Gondor has been hanging out by the thread. As an allies Thranduil and even so Celeborn was REQUIRED to send a military help to Denethor.
If they somehow could avoid a participations in the fights before the inflammation of the military conflict , then in the crucial moment their presence in the war was MANDATORY.The Elves lords were in the need of an extremely convincing reason not to get in this massacre.
Sauron very well understand this, he doesn’t need the Elves on the Pelennor field also. And he gives to Lorien what it silently begging - an imitation of the storm.
But you won’t send kamikazes from Mordor where every single fighter has been accounted for ,and Dol-Guldul is just right for such cook up.
And when orc’s catapults began to strike mallorns on the Golden wood’s border , the Firstborn breathed with relieve:” Sorry Denethor,we would like to help, but we are ourselves in tight spot, fending off three attacks in two weeks ”…

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Olmer

The matter is that after Mordor’s intrusion in Osgiliath the existence of Gondor has been hanging out by the thread. As an allies Thranduil and even so Celeborn was REQUIRED to send a military help to Denethor.

But were they allies? At least, I never had that impression. From the book I got the feeling that Gondor reckoned only Rohan as its ally. Neither Mirkwood or Lothlórien are mentioned anywhere by Gondoreans as a possible source of aid (at least to my knowledge). I assumed most Gondoreans hardly knew where these realms lay or even knew who ruled there. Only Rohan has sworn alligence to Gondor through the oath or Éorl and only to Rohan was sent the red arrow in request for aid.

But we're degressing, aren't we? Shall we make a new thread to discuss this further?

[Attalus]

Hey, I'd post on that. Boromir seemed to have no idea of the Elves riding to Gondor's aid, only "our allies in Rohan."

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

But were they allies?

They used to be , especially in the Second age. In the War of the Last Alliance Oropher “assembled a great army” and “joining with the lesser army of Malgalad of Lorien he led the host to the battle” as an independent from the supreme command of Gil-Galad” army.(UT, History of Galadriel).
It ‘s hard to believe that the later rulers of Gondor, the far-sighted and skillful politician, were not keeping an information about theirs potential (even if now used- to -be) alliances.They still had a mutual enemy.
The question is : why the Elves should be required to be present on the most crucial for ME existence battle on the Pelennore field?
Because they were “hysterically screaming” more and louder than anybody else about the danger of the doom to everyone on the ME and the need to unite and together withstand the Enemy. And nevertheless in the critical fights on Pelennor’s and Cormalen’s field were not been involved any Elve’s troops. It’s understandable that in the Third age the Elves preferred to be an agitators, not a soldiers…
But how you can possibly explain it to your allies?
And the terrible fortress of Dol Guldur presents this possibility.
In the March 11, 3019, four days before the Pelennore field’s battle, an untroubled vacation of DolGuldur’s garrison has ended. Mean officers with swearing and kicking raised up sleepy and fat orcs and run them up to storm the Lorien.
As a rule the primary goal in the attack on majorities classical fortresses is a penetration the defensive perimeter, the walls, so to say. But Lorien is a unique place. This “fortress” all the way through consist of the defensive perimeters, and the amount of sniper’s towers is equal to the amount of the trees in it .It’s a suicide to storm such “monster” without an artillery!! And the needed necessary outweighing amount of the attackers is even hard to imagine.!
But any way orcs were attacking the Lothlorien!(???) And, of course, they went headlong and smashed their foreheads. .But on March 15 they attacked again, what is more they are going up to not only Celeborn, but Thranduil also!
And one week later the third attack on the Golden woods!
The first thought which is coming to mind: they ate too much of hallucinogenic mushrooms…
But if you will look at it more scrupulously, the “strategic convulsions” of Dol-Guldur is becoming more reasonable.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

But were they allies? At least, I never had that impression. From the book I got the feeling that Gondor reckoned only Rohan as its ally. Neither Mirkwood or Lothlórien are mentioned anywhere by Gondoreans as a possible source of aid (at least to my knowledge). I assumed most Gondoreans hardly knew where these realms lay or even knew who ruled there. Only Rohan has sworn alligence to Gondor through the oath or Éorl and only to Rohan was sent the red arrow in request for aid.

But we're degressing, aren't we? Shall we make a new thread to discuss this further?

Yes, I think a new thread on this would be good. I also didn'tget the impression that they were allies. Look at the way the Gondorians (and Rohirrim) referred to Galadriel.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Olmer

They used to be , especially in the Second age. In the War of the Last Alliance Oropher “assembled a great army” and “joining with the lesser army of Malgalad of Lorien he led the host to the battle” as an independent from the supreme command of Gil-Galad” army.(UT, History of Galadriel).It ‘s hard to believe that the later rulers of Gondor, the far-sighted and skillful politician, were not keeping an information about theirs potential (even if now used- to -be) alliances.They still had a mutual enemy.

Indeed, but between the Last Alliance and the War of the Ring there are some three thousand year, that may be but a few years in Elven reckoning but we're talking a nigh eternity in human years. Even considering the longer lifespans of the exiled Númenoreans three thousand year is a lot of generations of Men.

The last time Elves and Men fought together was around 1975 TA, to defeat the Witch King of Angmar, (Valandil's favorite period) but Gondor came to aid Arthedain with whom they still had some tie of kin and to whom the then-current king of Gondor, Eärnil, had promised aid when Arvedui would need it. Still, that was over a 1000 year ago, at the time of the War of the Ring. And there are no mentions of any possible alliance between the Elves and Gondor at that time. Rohan wasn't even founded at that time but before the founding of Rohan and after Gondor was in peril for several times and never did the Elves come to their aid. To me that indicates that they had no longer ties of alliagence in the Third Aera.

The question is : why the Elves should be required to be present on the most crucial for ME existence battle on the Pelennore field?
Because they were “hysterically screaming” more and louder than anybody else about the danger of the doom to everyone on the ME and the need to unite and together withstand the Enemy. And nevertheless in the critical fights on Pelennor’s and Cormalen’s field were not been involved any Elve’s troops. It’s understandable that in the Third age the Elves preferred to be an agitators, not a soldiers…

Were they 'screaming' more loudly than everybody else? I wouldn't say so. The Elves took little to no initiative to unite the nations of Men with their own after the Last Alliance. The Last Alliance, is IMO, named correctly, i.e. the last one. If the Elves were screaming about the impending doom, they apparently did so in the privacy of their own dwellings.

I think the Elves dimished greatly during the Third Age, especially in number. They also became less and less involved in what happened in Middle-earth, leaving it more and more to humans to shape Middle-earth. Considering the constant Elven-talk of 'fading' and 'leaving' I'd be surprised if there had been Elven forces fighting in Gondor. But I agree partly with what you say (although I wouldn't use the term agitators ) that the Elves prefered to work behind the scenes (eg by harbouring the descendants of Arvedui) than to fight openly in battles in the Third Aera.

But how you can possibly explain it to your allies?
And the terrible fortress of Dol Guldur presents this possibility.
In the March 11, 3019, four days before the Pelennore field’s battle, an untroubled vacation of DolGuldur’s garrison has ended. [...]
But if you will look at it more scrupulously, the “strategic convulsions” of Dol-Guldur is becoming more reasonable.

I get the feeling you're suggesting a certain alliance between the orcs and the Elves (I seem to remember you suggested something similar before in another thread) but then how could the Elves possibly be allies to Gondor at the same time? Surely Denethor "the far-sighted and skill-full politician' would have noticed that?

Don't hesitate to prove me wrong, Olmer, as always I'll be interested in your reply.

[Count Comfect]

I think that the "Last Alliance," while still young in the memory of, say, an Elrond or a Celeborn, is far too far for Gondor to consider. After all, they already doubt that the King will ever return - yet the Kings died out many many generations after the Last Alliance. If the Kingly line is dead, why should not the elvish alliance be?
Also, it bears mentioning that Sauron could very well be foolish enough to attack too many places at once. Many notable military minds of our own earth (Robert E. Lee, Hannibal, George Washington, just to name 3) at one time or another divided their forces instead of going for one crushing hammerblow at a crucial point. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. This could be one of the doesn'ts.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Count Comfect

Also, it bears mentioning that Sauron could very well be foolish enough to attack too many places at once. Many notable military minds of our own earth (Robert E. Lee, Hannibal, George Washington, just to name 3) at one time or another divided their forces instead of going for one crushing hammerblow at a crucial point. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. This could be one of the doesn'ts.

I think Adolf Hitler is worth noting here. As Sauron and Hitler have a bit in common. Due to his dual front in the West and in Russia Hitler came to his end.

[Attalus]

I do not think the Elves considered themselves military allies of the Kingdoms of Men after the Last Alliance. As was pointed out, there was abroad a distrust of the Elves, ("They are Elvish wights...") doubtless sewn by the lies of Sauron or even the remnant of Morgoth's. The Elves were fighting a rearguard action to protect the Havens and the roads to the sea, so that their escape route would not be cut off. Only a few far-sighted and wise Elves like Galadriel and Elrond still considered the war against Sauron, but they were concerned with the North, not Gondor. A pity, but true.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I think at need the elves would had ridden to Gondors aid but not done as the Rohirrim did and ride to their aid when they were summoned.
Had they stayed during the Fourth Age though it may have been a different case. Aragorn being bought up among them and Arwen being their ex-princess.

[Attalus]

Remember Boromir's words. " Only from Rohan will any men ride to us when we call." and "The might of Elrond is in wisdom, not in weapons, it is said." The only aid that he looked for was in unraveling hard words, and advice. Yet, that is aid, of a sort, impossible to obtain, otherwise.

[Ñólendil]

I think at need the elves would had ridden to Gondors aid but not done as the Rohirrim did and ride to their aid when they were summoned.
Had they stayed during the Fourth Age though it may have been a different case. Aragorn being bought up among them and Arwen being their ex-princess.

I disagree. I don't think the Elves would have ridden to Gondor. The Men of Gondor were in need, and no Elves went to their aid, for though Galadriel with mist once aided Men in late Third Age battles, neither the Galadhrim of Lothlorien nor the Elves of the Woodland Realm were political allies of Gondor. The land of Dwimordene (Lothlorien) was held in suspicion and fear, and I do not know if the average Gondorian soldier even knew of the Elves in the Woodland Realm (in Northern Mirkwood). Little was known of Rivendell even to scholars, and I'm sure little more was said of the Grey Havens.

All of these Elven peoples knew of Gondor, but they had their own wars to fight. I don't think there was a sufficient army to send from Mithlond or Imladris, and yet leave enough behind should the war turn ill, and many battles were fought in Lorien and Mirkwood, including the great Battle Under the Trees, the Beornings, Woodmen, Elves of Celeborn and Elves of Thranduil all fought against the Enemy.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

To me that indicates that they had no longer ties of alliagence in the Third Aera.

I didn’t talk about the Elves’ allegiance to anybody , but to their own words.
Allies is too strong word for Elves to hope for in political situation at the beginning of the Third Age. With theirs behind the scene politics they lost the trust among other nations of Free People, but fortunately they still had many sympathizers.
The Fellowship was put together with representatives from the different races of the Middle -earth, which were still considering them as trustworthy and fearless race, and seems like came for their advise and help in the time of distress, and such assembly made with a very direct purpose: to change the Middle-earth political picture in more favorable to the Elves.

Then , while you smartly discuss how to bring Sauron to his end (by somebody else hands, by the way), and while your spokesman- Gandalf , “delighting to bear ill news”, was trumpeting all around the ME about impending doom if Men and other “Free People” won’t do something with this insufferable Lord of the Rings, how you can explain to your sympathizers that at the time, when deeds worth more than any words, the “fearless Elves” prefer to withhold from any action which could bring elves's blood spilling, because they" little concerned with the ways of...any other creature upon earth",(FOTR) ...Let men or whoever else themselves get out of their ****.

They needed a diversion to save their faces. And they have got it.
And indeed, 3 days after Sauron’s downfall Celeborn crossed Anduin and straight away took inaccessible fortress of Dol Guldur.I honestly hope that by that timethe major part of orcs, whatever left from Dol Guldur garrison, managed to abscond the place.
But now to all titles and deeds of the Lord of the Galadrim he could add a “veteran of the War of the Ring”, and nobody can accuse him of hiding behind.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

The Elves took little to no initiative to unite the nations of Men with their own
They also became less and less involved in what happened in Middle-earth,...

Finally, you agreed on my words that they are really don’t give a damn about what will happened to the folk of Middle-earth which makes a quite hypocritical all their later pretense about helping to a Mankind in saving the World .

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I'd be surprised if there had been Elven forces fighting in Gondor.

When even 30 Dunedain was counted for, definitely a host of Elves, which was sent to defend the Northern border in time of the Fellowship vacation in Lorien would be not unneeded, and the skillful fighters like Glorfindel and Elrond alone would create a noticeable dent in Sauron’s army.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I get the feeling you're suggesting a certain alliance between the orcs and the Elves
Surely Denethor "the far-sighted and skill-full politician' would have noticed that?

I was suggesting certain trade connections between orcs of Moria and the Elves . Between Sauron and them was never ceased animosity, not the war. After defeat of the Witch King of Angmar the Elves completely withdrew from any fight, save local clashes with orcs, and Sauron didn’t bother them too much, it was kind of a certain unspoken cooperation.
Denethor preceived it and did not trust them and didn‘t expect them.
And he was right. Didn’t he?
They had a great chance to prove otherwise, but…it never happened.










.

[Attalus]

You lost me at the part about commerce between the Orcs of Dol Guldur and Lothlórien. I challenge you to find any reference in the entire Legendarium where the Elves said or did anything about the Orcs except detestation or constant war. The Elves of Lothlórien were too few to send to Gondor, since they were all needed to defend Lothlórien from Dol Guldur. Elrond had even fewer at his disposal, one house full and all the way to go bewteen Imladris and Gondor. I think that the Elves hated and feared Sauron and would have done anything to destroy him, but they had been betrayed before by both Men and Dwarves. As Haldir says, they could not by their trust endanger their own lands.

[The Gaffer]

Yes, I think we're in danger of ignoring the evidence of the primary texts here.

There was no alliance between Lorien and Gondor. People in Gondor and Rohan spoke of the "Lady of the Golden Wood" with fear and suspicion, (remember Gimli's feud with Eomer), and no-one had the faintest idea where Imladris was. Certainly, no-one from either country had had any significant dealings with the Elves for many generations.

The estrangement of the foes of Sauron was one of his greatest achievements, as Gandalf points out at the Council of Elrond. Each has their own problems to contend with.

From the literary perspective, that's an important point. Part of the moral of the tale, I think, is that people need to look beyond their own immediate circumstances to see the broader good.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Ñólendil

I disagree. I don't think the Elves would have ridden to Gondor.

So you are saying if Elrond and the other host of elves that went with him stayed in ME they would have let war engulf Gondor and its people. I don't think that Elrond would let Arwen would die just because she became mortal and was of mankind. Her brothers certainly would not and maybe even her Grandparents (Celeborn and Galadriel) would have sent elves to her aid.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Attalus

I challenge you to find any reference in the entire Legendarium where the Elves said or did anything about the Orcs except detestation or constant war. .

Sometimes words could be deceiving, and you are getting the whole picture by analizing the actions.It's not what the Elves said, it's what they did.

I won't accept you challenge because, as I can see, you are taking the given story at face value and don't want to go deeper than that .
But anyway you can find my point of view in the post #33 under subject:"What would the Balrog have done if the ring had fallen into his hands".

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

So you are saying if Elrond and the other host of elves that went with him stayed in ME they would have let war engulf Gondor and its people. I don't think that Elrond would let Arwen would die just because she became mortal and was of mankind. Her brothers certainly would not and maybe even her Grandparents (Celeborn and Galadriel) would have sent elves to her aid.

I don't really understnad you... If Gondor had lost the battle, Aragorn was dead and Arwen would probably go to Valinor and be an elf.

I agree with Nolendil and Gaffer - the Elves wouldn't go to help Gondor. The Elves of Lorien and Mirkwood had their own war, I think, and couldn't let any soldiers go; and the there weren't enough Elves in Rivendell to make a change. If Mordor won the battle - meaning, if Frodo didn't get to the Mountain to thrwo the Ring - nothing wouldv'e stopped Sauron.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I mean if the elves had stayed in Middle-Earth into the Fourth Age and Gondor was under attack by a force greater than that on the Pelennor Fields the surely the elves would have ridden if only to just save Arwen. I can't imagine Elrond, Elladan and Elrohir just watching Gondor and their daughter/sister be destroyed.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

I mean if the elves had stayed in Middle-Earth into the Fourth Age and Gondor was under attack by a force greater than that on the Pelennor Fields the surely the elves would have ridden if only to just save Arwen. I can't imagine Elrond, Elladan and Elrohir just watching Gondor and their daughter/sister be destroyed.

It wouldn't happen, so I can't really see why you give this example - but I guess they would go to Gondor. Like they went to save Celebrial. (sp.)