Palantir in T2T - Page 2

***azalea*** · 02-10-2003, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dunadan
It's a straight swap for Pippin looking into the Orthance stone.

See, that's my biggest prob w/ the movies. It's not the additions, it's the omissions! I love that part, and would love to see it done onscreen! It's the fact that so much of the "meat" of the book has to be (or was decided it would be) omitted.

*still holding out hope it will be included*

Dunadan · 02-10-2003, 03:57 PM

I'm with you on that one, particularly as it emphasises the importance of the "lesser" hobbits. Like for example that Gandalf thought that Pippin saved him from the error of looking in the stone himself.

***azalea*** · 02-10-2003, 04:02 PM

Plus the fact that it nullifies the need for Pippin to run after it and bring it to Gandalf at Orthanc, and then the scene where Gandalf and Pippin race to Gondor on Shadowfax -- I love that part, I love the dialogue!! And if you want to take it further, it then nullifies the need for Merry and Pippin to get split up, which is how they end up swearing oaths to their respective lords! So he MUST look in if we're to get all that!

Melko Belcha · 03-13-2003, 01:29 PM

The entire use of the palantir by Pippin and Aragorn would be useless in RotK. When Pippin looks in it Sauron believes the ring is in Orthanc or that the Hobbit knows where it's at. When Aragorn uses it Sauron believes he has the ring and is challenging him, so it makes Sauron attack early before his plans are set. By Frodo showing the ring to the Nazgul in Osgiliath Sauron would think the ring was heading for Minas Tirith. So wouldn't he attack as soon as possible? If he already believes the ring is in Gondor he would attack before they could muster their strength or have a chance to rise against him. I was just curious if other people had thought of this?

***azalea*** · 03-13-2003, 03:56 PM

I merged your thread with this one, since it is where we have most currently been discussing that very subject.

Tuor of Gondolin · 01-13-2004, 04:54 PM

Originally posted by Dunadan
Having also seen TTT now, I think this might explain the daft ring-giving scene at Osgiliath. Sauron would probably believe that the Ring was on its way to Minas Tirith. It's a straight swap for Pippin looking into the Orthance stone.
___________________________________
Originally posted by Melcho Belka
The entire use of the palantir by Pippin and Aragorn would be useless in RotK. When Pippin looks in it Sauron believes the ring is in Orthanc or that the Hobbit knows where it's at.
____________________________________
Comments in a discussion before ROTK came out, which
makes a scene in ROTK even less comprehensible.
Pippin does pick up the stone and Merry later tells him "The Enemy thinks you have the Ring." Why? When Frodo showed the Ring to a nazgulk in TTT? Apparently movie Sauron wasn't too bright.

Also, Aragorn not only doesn't take control of the Palantir, but seems no less negatively effected by it then Pippin.

Yes, PJ using the Palantir the way he did was senseless/useless. Because Frodo earlier showed the Ring Sauron must think it's in Minas Tirith, but then PJ separates Pippin and Merry using the spurious comment about Sauron thinking Pippin has the Ring???

It seems to me they either forgot or didn't note the inconsistency in the above, or PJ was so fixated with the "Frodo offering Ring scene" that he just didn't care about inconsistencies. Or is there some way to make use of the Palantir in the movie coherent? And why not have at least an allusion of Denethor using a Palantir to explain his behavior (perhaps by Gandalf to Pippin in their terrace scene, where they're talking about death)?

***azalea*** · 01-13-2004, 05:44 PM

Either way, I don't think it was "explained" (in dramatic terms) well enough. I think "book people" chalk it up to a big inconsistancy/ mistake, and non-book people either don't remember or simply overlook it. They don't know enough to understand that it's a problem, so I guess for that reason it wasn't important to the filmmakers that it be reconciled.

jerseydevil · 01-15-2004, 03:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by azalea
Either way, I don't think it was "explained" (in dramatic terms) well enough. I think "book people" chalk it up to a big inconsistancy/ mistake, and non-book people either don't remember or simply overlook it. They don't know enough to understand that it's a problem, so I guess for that reason it wasn't important to the filmmakers that it be reconciled.

The true reason - it would take time away from that awesome Battle at Pelenor Fields.

Jackson has demonstrated in all movies that he doesn't care about inconsitancies - just as long as he gets his action battle scenes in there.

Entlover · 01-15-2004, 04:35 AM

The problem goes away if we assume that the Nazgul didn't see Frodo holding up the ring. I think only the flying beast saw it, and was distracted by being shot at. We're supposed to think that Sam shoved Frodo out of the way in time to prevent disaster.

The rest of the movie assumes that Sauron thinks Pippin has the ring. In the EE I think we'll see Aragorn confront Sauron via the palantir; there was something to that effect in a trailer, a scene with Aragorn saying "He's had things too much his own way," or something like that.

jerseydevil · 01-15-2004, 05:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Entlover
The problem goes away if we assume that the Nazgul didn't see Frodo holding up the ring. I think only the flying beast saw it, and was distracted by being shot at. We're supposed to think that Sam shoved Frodo out of the way in time to prevent disaster.

The Nazul can sense the ring. They're drawn to the ring - if they didn't know they ring was in fron to fthem from two feet away - then they are extremely weaken as Sauron's servants to get the Ring.

Quote:

The rest of the movie assumes that Sauron thinks Pippin has the ring. In the EE I think we'll see Aragorn confront Sauron via the palantir; there was something to that effect in a trailer, a scene with Aragorn saying "He's had things too much his own way," or something like that.

So - why wasn't it in the theatrical version? Why do we have to keep waiting until the EE version to solve all these plot holes that Jackson poor directing causes.

The Gaffer · 01-15-2004, 05:28 AM

IIRC, at Weathertop in FOTR, the Witch King extends his fingers to take the Ring off Frodo's hand before Frodo pulls it away.

squinteyedsoutherner · 01-16-2004, 09:34 AM

If I’m doing the math correctly then Pippin looking into the Palantir happened before Frodo showed the ring to the Nazgul. Faramir says to Gandalf he saw Frodo 2 days ago. And it seems that showing the ring is the event that precipitates Frodo’s release so it must have been on that day or the one previous.

Gandalf says to Pippin that it’s a 3 day ride to Minas Tirith and they seem to be there at least one night before Faramir arrives because they witness that lightning from the balcony. And Faramir arrives the next day.

Also, there seems to be a discrepancy between the amount of time it takes Rohan to answer, and how much time passes in Minas Tirith. Rohan musters for 2 days and then rides for three from the time the beacons are lit. It seems to be only the next day in Minas Tirith when they arrive, not 5 days later.

I’m not sure how this effects any theories but thought I’d throw it into the mix

***azalea*** · 01-16-2004, 11:35 PM

Oh, you're right! I hadn't thought of that, I think he did show it after the palantir episode. But still that isn't made clear (in terms of movie-making). It would have been hard to do that, because of all the time factors that had to be coordinated.

03-13-2003, 01:29 PM	#24
Melko Belcha Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Behind the Walls of Night Posts: 286	Palantir in RotK The entire use of the palantir by Pippin and Aragorn would be useless in RotK. When Pippin looks in it Sauron believes the ring is in Orthanc or that the Hobbit knows where it's at. When Aragorn uses it Sauron believes he has the ring and is challenging him, so it makes Sauron attack early before his plans are set. By Frodo showing the ring to the Nazgul in Osgiliath Sauron would think the ring was heading for Minas Tirith. So wouldn't he attack as soon as possible? If he already believes the ring is in Gondor he would attack before they could muster their strength or have a chance to rise against him. I was just curious if other people had thought of this?

01-13-2004, 04:54 PM	#26
Tuor of Gondolin Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southeastern Pennsylvania Posts: 1,215	Originally posted by Dunadan Having also seen TTT now, I think this might explain the daft ring-giving scene at Osgiliath. Sauron would probably believe that the Ring was on its way to Minas Tirith. It's a straight swap for Pippin looking into the Orthance stone. ___________________________________ Originally posted by Melcho Belka The entire use of the palantir by Pippin and Aragorn would be useless in RotK. When Pippin looks in it Sauron believes the ring is in Orthanc or that the Hobbit knows where it's at. ____________________________________ Comments in a discussion before ROTK came out, which makes a scene in ROTK even less comprehensible. Pippin does pick up the stone and Merry later tells him "The Enemy thinks you have the Ring." Why? When Frodo showed the Ring to a nazgulk in TTT? Apparently movie Sauron wasn't too bright. Also, Aragorn not only doesn't take control of the Palantir, but seems no less negatively effected by it then Pippin. Yes, PJ using the Palantir the way he did was senseless/useless. Because Frodo earlier showed the Ring Sauron must think it's in Minas Tirith, but then PJ separates Pippin and Merry using the spurious comment about Sauron thinking Pippin has the Ring??? It seems to me they either forgot or didn't note the inconsistency in the above, or PJ was so fixated with the "Frodo offering Ring scene" that he just didn't care about inconsistencies. Or is there some way to make use of the Palantir in the movie coherent? And why not have at least an allusion of Denethor using a Palantir to explain his behavior (perhaps by Gandalf to Pippin in their terrace scene, where they're talking about death)? __________________ Democrat for Kerry-Edwards! Take Back America Aure entuluva!

01-16-2004, 09:34 AM	#32
squinteyedsoutherner Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 198	If I’m doing the math correctly then Pippin looking into the Palantir happened before Frodo showed the ring to the Nazgul. Faramir says to Gandalf he saw Frodo 2 days ago. And it seems that showing the ring is the event that precipitates Frodo’s release so it must have been on that day or the one previous. Gandalf says to Pippin that it’s a 3 day ride to Minas Tirith and they seem to be there at least one night before Faramir arrives because they witness that lightning from the balcony. And Faramir arrives the next day. Also, there seems to be a discrepancy between the amount of time it takes Rohan to answer, and how much time passes in Minas Tirith. Rohan musters for 2 days and then rides for three from the time the beacons are lit. It seems to be only the next day in Minas Tirith when they arrive, not 5 days later. I’m not sure how this effects any theories but thought I’d throw it into the mix Last edited by squinteyedsoutherner : 01-16-2004 at 09:37 AM.

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02-10-2003, 03:57 PM	#22
Dunadan The Quite Querulous Quendi Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Oxon, UK Posts: 638	I'm with you on that one, particularly as it emphasises the importance of the "lesser" hobbits. Like for example that Gandalf thought that Pippin saved him from the error of looking in the stone himself.

02-10-2003, 04:02 PM	#23
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	Plus the fact that it nullifies the need for Pippin to run after it and bring it to Gandalf at Orthanc, and then the scene where Gandalf and Pippin race to Gondor on Shadowfax -- I love that part, I love the dialogue!! And if you want to take it further, it then nullifies the need for Merry and Pippin to get split up, which is how they end up swearing oaths to their respective lords! So he MUST look in if we're to get all that!

03-13-2003, 03:56 PM	#25
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	I merged your thread with this one, since it is where we have most currently been discussing that very subject.

01-13-2004, 05:44 PM	#27
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	Either way, I don't think it was "explained" (in dramatic terms) well enough. I think "book people" chalk it up to a big inconsistancy/ mistake, and non-book people either don't remember or simply overlook it. They don't know enough to understand that it's a problem, so I guess for that reason it wasn't important to the filmmakers that it be reconciled.

01-15-2004, 04:35 AM	#29
Entlover Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 463	The problem goes away if we assume that the Nazgul didn't see Frodo holding up the ring. I think only the flying beast saw it, and was distracted by being shot at. We're supposed to think that Sam shoved Frodo out of the way in time to prevent disaster. The rest of the movie assumes that Sauron thinks Pippin has the ring. In the EE I think we'll see Aragorn confront Sauron via the palantir; there was something to that effect in a trailer, a scene with Aragorn saying "He's had things too much his own way," or something like that.

01-15-2004, 05:28 AM	#31
The Gaffer Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: In me taters Posts: 3,288	IIRC, at Weathertop in FOTR, the Witch King extends his fingers to take the Ring off Frodo's hand before Frodo pulls it away.

01-16-2004, 11:35 PM	#33
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	Oh, you're right! I hadn't thought of that, I think he did show it after the palantir episode. But still that isn't made clear (in terms of movie-making). It would have been hard to do that, because of all the time factors that had to be coordinated.