Dispute over movie LOTR museum

Tuor of Gondolin · 12-02-2003, 03:05 PM

A Dec. 1st article in Theonering.net says:

Tolkien party soured
By Claire Harvey
December 2, 2003

ONE ring ruled them all last night, as a magical fellowship of trolls, hobbits and film geeks united in Wellington to hail The Return of the King.

But even as 100,000 fans celebrated the world premiere of the final instalment in the Lord of the Rings trilogy, Kiwi director Peter Jackson was fighting with the estate of Rings author JRR Tolkien.

Tolkien's estate is refusing to allow Jackson - tipped to win this year's Best Director Oscar - to create a Rings museum in Wellington.

Wrangles with the late author's family have marred the $4.7 billion-earning film trilogy, to the immense frustration of Jackson and Hollywood studio New Line Cinema. He wants to save the thousands of swords, suits of armour, costumes and sets used in the films in a museum but the estate's custodian Christopher Tolkien, who has refused to endorse the movies, won't give permission.

"The difficulty everybody has is the Tolkien estate," Jackson said.

"The problem is always a legal one. New Line Cinema don't have the legal authority to allow (the museum) to happen. That's kept by the Tolkien estate, and so the Tolkien estate so far have refused."

If he can't have a museum, Jackson wants a bronze statue of the film's characters in Wellington to thank the people of New Zealand for their support - and the $NZ300 million ($265 million) tax break they gave the producers. "We have appealed to (the Tolkien estate) at various times to do something for the community but they keep saying no," Jackson said.

New Line, which spent $US300million ($415 million) making the films, is already planning to continue its Rings success with an adaptation of Tolkien's novel The Hobbit.

More difficulties with the Tolkien estate were looming, said Jackson, who added that he would be keen to get involved after he finishes remaking King Kong in 2006. "New Line haven't actually talked to me about The Hobbit. I know there's difficulty about the rights, certainly if they want to talk to me about it I'd be keen," he said.
_______________________________________________

While you can understand CT misgivings, such as that a movie-based LOTR museum might come to be seen as the "official" Middle-earth interpretation, can't some compromise be reached? Say, making it clear it's an interpretation, perhaps having part of the museum devoted to other views and artistic interpretations. You could even have various guest lecturers (say, Jerseydevil and Black Breathalizer).

jerseydevil · 12-02-2003, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tuor of Gondolin
While you can understand CT misgivings, such as that a movie-based LOTR museum might come to be seen as the "official" Middle-earth interpretation, can't some compromise be reached? Say, making it clear it's an interpretation, perhaps having part of the museum devoted to other views and artistic interpretations. You could even have various guest lecturers (say, Jerseydevil and Black Breathalizer).

Thank you inviting me as guest lecturer - but I have heard about the LotR movie museum before - and I am against it. If anything - a museum should be placed in England - NOT New Zealand and it should NOT be movie related. New Zealand is just trying to catch as many tourist dollars as they can and don't care one single bit about the Books.

mithrand1r · 12-02-2003, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tuor of Gondolin
More difficulties with the Tolkien estate were looming, said Jackson, who added that he would be keen to get involved after he finishes remaking King Kong in 2006. "New Line haven't actually talked to me about The Hobbit. I know there's difficulty about the rights, certainly if they want to talk to me about it I'd be keen," he said.
_______________________________________________

Actually, I would like to see another director take a crack at this. hopefully whomever this new director will be would have the financial backing, directing ability and will to make the Hobbit such a successful adaptation, that people will look at PJ's LOTR in a new light. (not to take anything away from PJ&co, they do deserve some credit.)

I do not blame CT & the Tolkien Estate from not permitting anything to be done in the name of Tolkien. The same reason given why they wanted to stay as far from the movie as possible. They did not want to give the "official stamp" of approval, in manner of speaking."

Tuor of Gondolin · 12-02-2003, 08:15 PM

Originally posted by Mithrand1r
Actually, I would like to see another director take a crack at this. hopefully whomever this new director will be would have the financial backing, directing ability and will to make the Hobbit such a successful adaptation, that people will look at PJ's LOTR in a new light. (not to take anything away from PJ&co, they do deserve some credit.)
_________________________________________

Good point! I'd like to see a different director use the WETA resources, the cinematography was really good. A more accurate/different adaptation of The Hobbit vis-a-vis LOTR would give bases for a reevaluation of PJ's work. And some remakes do succeed, if eventually LOTR is remade. (Hey, there's even a rumor some director or other is remaking King Kong.

Rosie Gamgee · 12-03-2003, 02:35 PM

I think a museum in Wellington is a great idea. I mean, I can understand why Tolkien's estate doesn't want to endorse it. It would look like their agreeing with all of the changes that Jackson has made to Tolkien's work, and I can understand why they would not want to do that. But there are a lot of people, including myself, who would like very much to get a hands-on kind of look at the stuff that made the films happen. I mean, I don't care what changes PJ made to the story, his interpretation of the world of Middle-earth almost invaribly synchopated with my own envisionment of Tolkien's world. The costumes, the places, the actors themselves most of the time just blew me away with how much they resembled what I had envisioned in my own brain. And to see those up close would be a great thing, I think. Right now, there's almost no way you can do that. To have a museum to the films for people to go and visit and learn and perhaps come to a deeper realization and apreciation of Tolkien's work is a good thing, IMO.

zinnite · 12-03-2003, 02:53 PM

The thing is, Jackson doesn't want to make it a museum for the neato props and stuff from the films, he wants it to be a Tolkien Museum. I don't think the Tolkien folks disagree with the idea of a museum in Wellington because of Jackson's changes in the film version--I think it's because they know the "Tolkien Museum" would end up being overwhelmingly focused on the films, with just a little about the man and his work. In essence, it would be a shrine to Peter Jackson, not Tolkien. I couldn't care less if he just wanted a place to show off stuff from the movies, but I think the idea of a Tolkien museum in New Zealand deadicated primarily to the films is ridiculous.

Rosie Gamgee · 12-03-2003, 05:47 PM

Hm, I do see what you mean. Shame. I hope they don't put up some dumb bronze statue. That sounds very stupid.

Rosie Gamgee · 12-03-2003, 05:47 PM

Hm, I do see what you mean. Shame. I hope they don't put up some dumb bronze statue. That sounds very stupid.

Tuor of Gondolin · 12-03-2003, 06:02 PM

While Zinnite makes a good argument, wouldn't the whole problem be obviated by the Tolkien estate establishing an "official" Middle-earth or J.R.R. Tolkien Museum or Centre in the Oxford or Birmingham area? They could then control the amount of movie space allotted there and a subsidiary museum could be established in Wellington with stipulations that's it was primarily a movie-themed exhibit.

Perhaps Christopher Tolkien viewed such museums as too "pop-art" previously, but it would be a form of control the estate could exercise.

After all, in the '80s I went to a Doctor Who Centre in Blackpool and there's all kinds of stuff about the Beetles in Liverpool. And it would mean more $$$ [well, pounds] for the estate.

Goldberry1 · 12-03-2003, 06:50 PM

Couldn't agree with you more Tuor! It seems you read my mind and found the exact words to say what I wanted to.

Personally, I don't understand what the problem would be. It just seems that those who worked on the movie want to commemorate what they have done in some way. There's obviously all that legal stuff to deal with but i really don't think it's a big deal.

zinnite · 12-03-2003, 07:25 PM

I was surprised to find there isn't a museum, or public collection, or anything for Tolkien. Perhaps the reason they're giving Jackson a hard time is because they are also planning one? Who knows. I think a museum for the films is a good idea, because for better or for worse it was/is quite an undertaking.

jerseydevil · 12-03-2003, 07:37 PM

I don't think they want to overally commercialize Tolkien and Lord of the Rings - which may seem odd with the movies and the amount of merchandise. But the thing is - the museum is a permanent thing. It puts the movies on a pedestal and if it is included in a Tolkien museum - it gives the movie validity. I don't think the tolkien estate wants to give too much validity to the movies - or have them too closely associated with the Tolkien name. The movie will die out. New Zealand was just trying to ride on the coattails of the success of the movies. New Zealand has NOTHING to do with Lord of the Rings. If anything - a museum dedicated to TOLKIEN and his works should be in England.

Another thing I think - the Tolkien estate is probably concerned about a "theme park" type feel or atmosphere. With the movies - Jackson proved to me he could care less(I know - British say "couldn't care less", but we don't) about the books. I do NOT trust him to have ANYTHING to do with a Lord of the Rings museum.

cassiopeia · 12-03-2003, 09:32 PM

I would like to see a LOTR movie museum in Wellington and a Tolkien museum in Oxford. I would rather the movie musuem just have things from the movies -- props and pictures for example. I like the idea of a New Zealand museum, because I read that 25% of people who go to New Zealand also go to Australia, and that's got to be good for the economy.

I believe there are already tours of places they shot scenes of the movie in New Zealand, and you can visit Tolkien's grave and the pub where he met with CS Lewis in England. So there are places to go -- I just wish I had the money to do so!

zinnite · 12-03-2003, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cassiopeia
I would like to see a LOTR movie museum in Wellington and a Tolkien museum in Oxford. I would rather the movie musuem just have things from the movies -- props and pictures for example.

That's the way I think it should be. It would be a mistake to have a real Tolkien museum (or something) associated in any way with the films, and not just because I personally think the films aren't up to par with Tolkien's work. JD is right--it would become a theme park based on the movies with some lip service highlighting Tolkien to give it some legitimacy (basically, it would look like the "extra features" discs in the EEs: Wow, look at all this neat stuff we did in the films, we're awesome! Oh, there's also some info on Tolkien in the back...)

Quote:

I don't think they want to overally commercialize Tolkien and Lord of the Rings...

Maybe, but there are many ways I can think of that wouldn't be commercial... I've actually thought about this exact subject more than a few times since taking a couple courses on public history (museum and archive management, stuff like that). I guess that makes me a super-geek

Tuor of Gondolin · 12-03-2003, 10:09 PM

Originally posted by Cassiopeia
I believe there are already tours of places they shot scenes of the movie in New Zealand, and you can visit Tolkien's grave and the pub where he met with CS Lewis in England. So there are places to go -- I just wish I had the money to do so!
_______________________________________

Yes. The TIC in Oxford gives out a walking guide handout (or did in the late '80s) by the Tolkien Society of places associated with JRRT and C. S. Lewis. One of the interesting bits is to visit the gravesites of Tolkien, Lewis, and Charles Williams. I have some good photographs of the Tolkiens' gravesite and headstone [Beren-Luthien).

I guess the downside to living in Australia is that just about anywhere but New Zealand is a lonnnng way off. From the U. S. east coast London is only 5-6 hours flight away, and the Pacific Coast even less time.
P. S. A while ago I read The Fatal Shore. Interesting, including the footnotes, but parts of it were a tad depressing. It seems the Aborigines had about as bad a time as United States indians in treatment by western settlers, and the conditions in the prison ships from Europe to Australia were not exactly first class.

I agree the Tolkien estate should have some sort of center in Oxford, perhaps somebody like Magdalen College could even be the administrator?

12-02-2003, 03:05 PM	#1
Tuor of Gondolin Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southeastern Pennsylvania Posts: 1,215	Dispute over movie LOTR museum A Dec. 1st article in Theonering.net says: Tolkien party soured By Claire Harvey December 2, 2003 ONE ring ruled them all last night, as a magical fellowship of trolls, hobbits and film geeks united in Wellington to hail The Return of the King. But even as 100,000 fans celebrated the world premiere of the final instalment in the Lord of the Rings trilogy, Kiwi director Peter Jackson was fighting with the estate of Rings author JRR Tolkien. Tolkien's estate is refusing to allow Jackson - tipped to win this year's Best Director Oscar - to create a Rings museum in Wellington. Wrangles with the late author's family have marred the $4.7 billion-earning film trilogy, to the immense frustration of Jackson and Hollywood studio New Line Cinema. He wants to save the thousands of swords, suits of armour, costumes and sets used in the films in a museum but the estate's custodian Christopher Tolkien, who has refused to endorse the movies, won't give permission. "The difficulty everybody has is the Tolkien estate," Jackson said. "The problem is always a legal one. New Line Cinema don't have the legal authority to allow (the museum) to happen. That's kept by the Tolkien estate, and so the Tolkien estate so far have refused." If he can't have a museum, Jackson wants a bronze statue of the film's characters in Wellington to thank the people of New Zealand for their support - and the $NZ300 million ($265 million) tax break they gave the producers. "We have appealed to (the Tolkien estate) at various times to do something for the community but they keep saying no," Jackson said. New Line, which spent $US300million ($415 million) making the films, is already planning to continue its Rings success with an adaptation of Tolkien's novel The Hobbit. More difficulties with the Tolkien estate were looming, said Jackson, who added that he would be keen to get involved after he finishes remaking King Kong in 2006. "New Line haven't actually talked to me about The Hobbit. I know there's difficulty about the rights, certainly if they want to talk to me about it I'd be keen," he said. _______________________________________________ While you can understand CT misgivings, such as that a movie-based LOTR museum might come to be seen as the "official" Middle-earth interpretation, can't some compromise be reached? Say, making it clear it's an interpretation, perhaps having part of the museum devoted to other views and artistic interpretations. You could even have various guest lecturers (say, Jerseydevil and Black Breathalizer). __________________ Democrat for Kerry-Edwards! Take Back America Aure entuluva! Last edited by Tuor of Gondolin : 12-02-2003 at 03:06 PM.

12-02-2003, 08:15 PM	#4
Tuor of Gondolin Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southeastern Pennsylvania Posts: 1,215	Originally posted by Mithrand1r Actually, I would like to see another director take a crack at this. hopefully whomever this new director will be would have the financial backing, directing ability and will to make the Hobbit such a successful adaptation, that people will look at PJ's LOTR in a new light. (not to take anything away from PJ&co, they do deserve some credit.) _________________________________________ Good point! I'd like to see a different director use the WETA resources, the cinematography was really good. A more accurate/different adaptation of The Hobbit vis-a-vis LOTR would give bases for a reevaluation of PJ's work. And some remakes do succeed, if eventually LOTR is remade. (Hey, there's even a rumor some director or other is remaking King Kong. __________________ Democrat for Kerry-Edwards! Take Back America Aure entuluva! Last edited by Tuor of Gondolin : 12-03-2003 at 05:50 PM.

12-03-2003, 02:35 PM	#5
Rosie Gamgee The Lovely Hobbit-Lass Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Bounded in a nut-shell Posts: 1,593	I think a museum in Wellington is a great idea. I mean, I can understand why Tolkien's estate doesn't want to endorse it. It would look like their agreeing with all of the changes that Jackson has made to Tolkien's work, and I can understand why they would not want to do that. But there are a lot of people, including myself, who would like very much to get a hands-on kind of look at the stuff that made the films happen. I mean, I don't care what changes PJ made to the story, his interpretation of the world of Middle-earth almost invaribly synchopated with my own envisionment of Tolkien's world. The costumes, the places, the actors themselves most of the time just blew me away with how much they resembled what I had envisioned in my own brain. And to see those up close would be a great thing, I think. Right now, there's almost no way you can do that. To have a museum to the films for people to go and visit and learn and perhaps come to a deeper realization and apreciation of Tolkien's work is a good thing, IMO. __________________ It's New Years Day, just like the day before; Same old skies of grey, same empty bottles on the floor. Another year's gone by, and I was thinking once again, How can I take this losing hand and somehow win? Just give me One Good Year To get my feet back on the ground. I've been chasing grace; Grace ain't so easily found One bad hand can devil a man, chase him and carry him down. I've got to get out of here, just give me One Good Year!

12-03-2003, 02:53 PM	#6
zinnite Elven Warrior Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Lawrence, Kansas, USA Posts: 195	The thing is, Jackson doesn't want to make it a museum for the neato props and stuff from the films, he wants it to be a Tolkien Museum. I don't think the Tolkien folks disagree with the idea of a museum in Wellington because of Jackson's changes in the film version--I think it's because they know the "Tolkien Museum" would end up being overwhelmingly focused on the films, with just a little about the man and his work. In essence, it would be a shrine to Peter Jackson, not Tolkien. I couldn't care less if he just wanted a place to show off stuff from the movies, but I think the idea of a Tolkien museum in New Zealand deadicated primarily to the films is ridiculous. __________________ A citizen runs to the fire department yelling that he's spotted a roaring blaze from his car. "WHERE IS IT?" the fire department asks, pen ready. "It rises like some brooding , glaring trail of cosmic fury from- " "WHERE? WHERE?" "Oh. Well, it blazes up from a crimson-sheathed visage brooding darkly above the haunted towers of impotent indignity which, like melons hovering unhappily over lifetimes of empty meaning which-" "THE ADDRESS!" "Oh. Oh, I didn't notice. But look for a brooding, glaring trail of cosmic fury rising from a crimson-sheathed visage-" They lead him back to his car, and send him on. -- Philip K. Dick "Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." -- Diderot

12-03-2003, 05:47 PM	#7
Rosie Gamgee The Lovely Hobbit-Lass Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Bounded in a nut-shell Posts: 1,593	Hm, I do see what you mean. Shame. I hope they don't put up some dumb bronze statue. That sounds very stupid. __________________ It's New Years Day, just like the day before; Same old skies of grey, same empty bottles on the floor. Another year's gone by, and I was thinking once again, How can I take this losing hand and somehow win? Just give me One Good Year To get my feet back on the ground. I've been chasing grace; Grace ain't so easily found One bad hand can devil a man, chase him and carry him down. I've got to get out of here, just give me One Good Year!

12-03-2003, 06:02 PM	#9
Tuor of Gondolin Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southeastern Pennsylvania Posts: 1,215	While Zinnite makes a good argument, wouldn't the whole problem be obviated by the Tolkien estate establishing an "official" Middle-earth or J.R.R. Tolkien Museum or Centre in the Oxford or Birmingham area? They could then control the amount of movie space allotted there and a subsidiary museum could be established in Wellington with stipulations that's it was primarily a movie-themed exhibit. Perhaps Christopher Tolkien viewed such museums as too "pop-art" previously, but it would be a form of control the estate could exercise. After all, in the '80s I went to a Doctor Who Centre in Blackpool and there's all kinds of stuff about the Beetles in Liverpool. And it would mean more $$$ [well, pounds] for the estate. __________________ Democrat for Kerry-Edwards! Take Back America Aure entuluva!

12-03-2003, 06:50 PM	#10
Goldberry1 Elven Warrior Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: DC or Delaware, depending on the time of year Posts: 244	Couldn't agree with you more Tuor! It seems you read my mind and found the exact words to say what I wanted to. Personally, I don't understand what the problem would be. It just seems that those who worked on the movie want to commemorate what they have done in some way. There's obviously all that legal stuff to deal with but i really don't think it's a big deal. __________________ Oh, your collegiate grief has left you dowdy in sweatshirts, absolute horror!

12-03-2003, 07:25 PM	#11
zinnite Elven Warrior Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Lawrence, Kansas, USA Posts: 195	I was surprised to find there isn't a museum, or public collection, or anything for Tolkien. Perhaps the reason they're giving Jackson a hard time is because they are also planning one? Who knows. I think a museum for the films is a good idea, because for better or for worse it was/is quite an undertaking. __________________ A citizen runs to the fire department yelling that he's spotted a roaring blaze from his car. "WHERE IS IT?" the fire department asks, pen ready. "It rises like some brooding , glaring trail of cosmic fury from- " "WHERE? WHERE?" "Oh. Well, it blazes up from a crimson-sheathed visage brooding darkly above the haunted towers of impotent indignity which, like melons hovering unhappily over lifetimes of empty meaning which-" "THE ADDRESS!" "Oh. Oh, I didn't notice. But look for a brooding, glaring trail of cosmic fury rising from a crimson-sheathed visage-" They lead him back to his car, and send him on. -- Philip K. Dick "Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." -- Diderot

12-03-2003, 07:37 PM	#12
jerseydevil I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Plainsboro, NJ Posts: 9,431	I don't think they want to overally commercialize Tolkien and Lord of the Rings - which may seem odd with the movies and the amount of merchandise. But the thing is - the museum is a permanent thing. It puts the movies on a pedestal and if it is included in a Tolkien museum - it gives the movie validity. I don't think the tolkien estate wants to give too much validity to the movies - or have them too closely associated with the Tolkien name. The movie will die out. New Zealand was just trying to ride on the coattails of the success of the movies. New Zealand has NOTHING to do with Lord of the Rings. If anything - a museum dedicated to TOLKIEN and his works should be in England. Another thing I think - the Tolkien estate is probably concerned about a "theme park" type feel or atmosphere. With the movies - Jackson proved to me he could care less(I know - British say "couldn't care less", but we don't) about the books. I do NOT trust him to have ANYTHING to do with a Lord of the Rings museum. __________________ Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

12-03-2003, 09:32 PM	#13
cassiopeia Viggoholic Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 1,749	I would like to see a LOTR movie museum in Wellington and a Tolkien museum in Oxford. I would rather the movie musuem just have things from the movies -- props and pictures for example. I like the idea of a New Zealand museum, because I read that 25% of people who go to New Zealand also go to Australia, and that's got to be good for the economy. I believe there are already tours of places they shot scenes of the movie in New Zealand, and you can visit Tolkien's grave and the pub where he met with CS Lewis in England. So there are places to go -- I just wish I had the money to do so! __________________ Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try. Last edited by cassiopeia : 12-03-2003 at 09:34 PM.

12-03-2003, 10:09 PM	#15
Tuor of Gondolin Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southeastern Pennsylvania Posts: 1,215	Originally posted by Cassiopeia I believe there are already tours of places they shot scenes of the movie in New Zealand, and you can visit Tolkien's grave and the pub where he met with CS Lewis in England. So there are places to go -- I just wish I had the money to do so! _______________________________________ Yes. The TIC in Oxford gives out a walking guide handout (or did in the late '80s) by the Tolkien Society of places associated with JRRT and C. S. Lewis. One of the interesting bits is to visit the gravesites of Tolkien, Lewis, and Charles Williams. I have some good photographs of the Tolkiens' gravesite and headstone [Beren-Luthien). I guess the downside to living in Australia is that just about anywhere but New Zealand is a lonnnng way off. From the U. S. east coast London is only 5-6 hours flight away, and the Pacific Coast even less time. P. S. A while ago I read The Fatal Shore. Interesting, including the footnotes, but parts of it were a tad depressing. It seems the Aborigines had about as bad a time as United States indians in treatment by western settlers, and the conditions in the prison ships from Europe to Australia were not exactly first class. I agree the Tolkien estate should have some sort of center in Oxford, perhaps somebody like Magdalen College could even be the administrator? __________________ Democrat for Kerry-Edwards! Take Back America Aure entuluva! Last edited by Tuor of Gondolin : 12-03-2003 at 10:18 PM.

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