The Wearing of Narya

Bombadillo · 10-24-2003, 01:33 PM

When Gandalf faced the Balrog in Moria, he wore Narya. That left him vulnerable to the One Ring's corruptive and compomising power.

That decision leads me to my first doubt of Gandalf: What would happen if the One Ring was worn during those 10 days in which they were fighting? It doesn't seem so wizardly wise.

I've thought about Narya's healing power. He could have been "fortifying his walls" during battle. But he didn't seem to fully consider what would occur if someone slipped on the One Ring. Surely, he'd be screwed. That would have been worse than anything the Balrog alone could have done to him.
Really, he didn't even need to fight the Balrog. He sent it falling to its death, that was all good. Of course, he was pulled down with it, but he is a Maiar; he had so many alternatives.

Somebody help me out. I don't feel comfortable going against Tolkien. And please don't flame me.

***Valandil*** · 10-24-2003, 01:57 PM

I don't think just ANYONE putting on the Ring would have affected the users of the Three. It didn't seem to bother them whenever Gollum, Bilbo or Frodo had the Ring on. Probably only someone with a very strong will would have affected them... most likely Sauron (else Saruman - very few others of evil bent).

And if Sauron got the Ring... all was lost anyway.

Faith in the judgement of Gandalf/JRRT restored?

Attalus · 10-24-2003, 02:24 PM

Remember Frodo asked Galadriel why, when he wore the Ring, he was not aware of the thoughts and actions of the other Bearers. Galdriel responded that, in the first place, he had not tried, and in the second, he would have to train his will to the dominion of others, first. So it wasn't just automatic that the wearer of the One was in charge of all the other Bearers.

***Earniel*** · 10-24-2003, 02:34 PM

I suppose the bearers of the three Elven rings always wore their rings. (Using it's power is of course quite another thing.) And Frodo had already put on the ring once or twice on his journey to Rivendell. If his putting on the One Ring had affected the bearers of the Three then, they would have known so before Gandalf's fight with the Balrog. If Frodo's putting on the One Ring had indeed affected them, they would have taken measures not to be caught, it would be terribly neglecting of them if they didn't do so before the fellowship set out.

So I don't think Gandalf should have worried about Narya when anyone else than Sauron put on the One Ring. Sauron was probably the only one who would be able to use the One Ring to it's full potential. As long as Sauron and his Ring were kept seperate, the Three were supposedly rather safe.

Nor do I think the Ring's corruptive powers on the people around it were stronger when somebody wore it, unless -I suppose- the bearer would attempt to use the Ring, which Frodo did not.

***Valandil*** · 10-24-2003, 02:47 PM

Coupla things I HAVE wondered about though... we know Celebrimbor became aware of Sauron (I assume through one of the Three) when Sauron first put on the One...

1. Were Elrond, Cirdan and Galadriel aware of Isildur when he put on the One to flee from the orcs? Did that help them piece together what had happened to him... at least to the point the One came off? Of course they wouldn't say so openly... it would be admitting that they held one of the Three.

2. Did the One necessarily automatically confer invisibility? I would think invisibility would be handy when desired, but could be inconvenient if you didn't want it at the moment, but wanted to exercise some other function of the One (like dominion over others... and you want your troops to see you). Like even the movie depicts, I don't imagine the One making Sauron invisible. What if Isildur put on the One and commanded it to make him invisible? Then... because the following ringbearers (Gollum, Bilbo, Frodo), either didn't have thestrength of will to change that... or didn't try, the Ring was sort of "stuck" in the mode of confering invisibility until commanded otherwise (even after over 3000 years).

JRRT doesn't seem to hint at either of those that I know of... but what do the rest of you think?

Ilúvatar · 10-24-2003, 02:49 PM

As has been pointed out by others. I don't think that Gandalf or any of the wearers of the Three Rings had to worry about the One Ring unless it was purposely being used for evil. Gollum never learned how to use it and Frodo never tried.

Artanis · 10-24-2003, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Valandil
Coupla things I HAVE wondered about though... we know Celebrimbor became aware of Sauron (I assume through one of the Three) when Sauron first put on the One...

Not only Celebrimbor, but all the Elves with rings, for they had made many. I do not think it was one of the Three, for they were untouched by Sauron and not so easy for him to discover.

Quote:

1. Were Elrond, Cirdan and Galadriel aware of Isildur when he put on the One to flee from the orcs?

I don't think so, for Isildur didn't try to control the mind of the bearers of the other rings, as Sauron did.

Quote:

Did the One necessarily automatically confer invisibility?

There is already a thread about this IIRC. Let's see if I can find it.

Edit: Found, Fëar, hröar and the Ring

Bombadillo · 10-24-2003, 07:14 PM

Yeah, thanks. That does clear a few things up for me.

Quote:

Originally posted by Valandil
2. Did the One necessarily automatically confer invisibility? I would think invisibility would be handy when desired, but could be inconvenient if you didn't want it at the moment, but wanted to exercise some other function of the One (like dominion over others... and you want your troops to see you).

I don't think that the bearer had any control over whether or not he would become invisible, keeping in mind Frodo's incident in Bree. It had a will of its own.

Quote:

Like even the movie depicts, I don't imagine the One making Sauron invisible. What if Isildur put on the One and commanded it to make him invisible? Then... because the following ringbearers (Gollum, Bilbo, Frodo), either didn't have thestrength of will to change that... or didn't try, the Ring was sort of "stuck" in the mode of confering invisibility until commanded otherwise (even after over 3000 years).

JRRT doesn't seem to hint at either of those that I know of... but what do the rest of you think?

Maybe the water of the Entwash caused it to short-circut.

Wayfarer · 10-26-2003, 12:16 AM

I'm pretty sure that the rings of power only conveyed invisibility to mortals. I.E., Humans (inclluding hobbits). Elves and maia don't seem to become invisible when they wear their rigns. and dwarves might not either.

Beor · 10-26-2003, 02:05 PM

I think that each ring has its own little power, like Galadriel's ring helped to sustain things (I think), and Narya was supposed to keep you going, espically when one wearies of tthe road, or something. Also, you could probably decide if you wanted to be invisible or not, if you had the will to do so. I could be of more help if some short guy hadn't stolen mine before I could get time to really use it. Sorry

Attalus · 10-26-2003, 03:01 PM

As for whether Isildur would have been able to know the thoughts of those who held the Three, yes, he could have; but, IIRC, at that time the Three were still in hiding, not being worn (or used). It was only after Sauron was known to be bereft of the One that the Elven Rings were used, and we have no information on exactly when that was.

Keith K · 10-27-2003, 11:45 PM

Is it possible that it was through the use of his Elven ring that Gandalf was able to detect Frodos' use of the One on Amon Hen? He hinted that Sauron almost saw where Frodo was located and that as the "Voice" he communicated with Frodo telling him "fool, take it off". It seems possible to me that the rings could have been in concert with each other during those moments. Very roughly akin to the palantiri. Maybe not completely in tune (since they had never been together), but as focal points for power to be displayed. The Three and the One did have some things in common other than the obvious fact that they were all rings. Particularly when you consider that Sauron had learned all of the Elven-smiths' secrets and then used them to craft the One. While the One might not have been "in" the Three, the Three were definately "in" the One. (Does that make sense?)

***Valandil*** · 10-28-2003, 12:04 AM

Artanis... thanks for that thread! It WAS interesting, but admittedly a little over my head.

Guess I still have much to learn. ("I am an egg" - recognize THAT one?) Have I gotta read all 12 volumes of HoME? And learn Quenya & Sindarin??

Artanis · 10-28-2003, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Valandil
Have I gotta read all 12 volumes of HoME? And learn Quenya & Sindarin??

Well that's the least to expect from members on this board, don't you think?

I don't think that anyone here has read all 12 volumes of HoME. Someone who can prove me wrong?
If there are some words you don't understand, or you've got other questions, feel free to ask.

Quote:

Originally posted by Bombadillo
Maybe the water of the Entwash caused it to short-circut.

LOL!

Falagar · 10-28-2003, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Artanis
Well that's the least to expect from members on this board, don't you think?
I don't think that anyone here has read all 12 volumes of HoME. Someone who can prove me wrong?
If there are some words you don't understand, or you've got other questions, feel free to ask.

LOL!

I don't know of anyone here (that I can remember anyway), but Gressli over on Tolkiens.net have read them all, I think (of course, that's a Norwegian site).

Personally I've been through 9 of them, and my favorites have been HoME II (Lost Tales part 2, due to the story of the Fall of Gondolin), HoME X (Morgoth's Ring, which includes great writings like Laws and Customs, Athrabeth a Finrod a Andreth) and HoME XII (The Peoples of Middle Earth).

Artanis · 10-29-2003, 03:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Falagar
I don't know of anyone here (that I can remember anyway), but Gressli over on Tolkiens.net have read them all, I think (of course, that's a Norwegian site).

The name Gressli sounds familiar.

Quote:

Personally I've been through 9 of them, and my favorites have been HoME II (Lost Tales part 2, due to the story of the Fall of Gondolin), HoME X (Morgoth's Ring, which includes great writings like Laws and Customs, Athrabeth a Finrod a Andreth) and HoME XII (The Peoples of Middle Earth).

Those are my favourites too, and I also love the Lays. I'm impressed. I've been through 7 of HoME, and currently reading The Lost Road to and fro.

Keith K, I think your theory is a good one.

Findegil · 11-03-2003, 03:24 PM

Yes. Keith K I think your theory is good. It is in harmony with the abilities of the rings as we know them, especialy since Fordo is the one that reads the mind of Gandalf in that moment and not the other way around.

By the way Artanis, I at least have read all 12 volumes of The History of Middle-Earth and that more than once, and I think there are more members of the board that have done so.

Respectfully
Findegil

Artanis · 11-03-2003, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Findegil
By the way Artanis, I at least have read all 12 volumes of The History of Middle-Earth and that more than once, and I think there are more members of the board that have done so.

Yes, I suspected you would be one to prove me wrong there.

Keith K · 11-04-2003, 01:42 AM

I have just obtained a copy of The Letters of JRR Tolkien and while browsing through it I discovered something that may be of interest to this thread. In letter 131 the author states

Quote:

...at Eregion great work began - and the Elves came their nearest to falling to 'magic' and machinery. With the aid of Sauron's lore they made Rings of Power ('power' is an ominous and sinister word in all these tales, except as applied to the gods). The chief power (of all the rings alike) was the prevention or slowing of decay (i.e. 'change' viewed as a regrettable thing), the preservation of what is desired or loved, or its semblance - this is more or less an Elvish motive. But also they enhanced the natural powers of a possessor - thus approaching 'magic', a motive easily corruptivle into evil, a lust for domination. And finally they had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron: such as rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visible.
The Elves of Eregion made Three supremely beautiful and powerful rings, almost solely of their own imagination, and directed to the preservation of beauty : they did not confer invisibility. But secretly in the subterranean Fire, in his own Black Land, Sauron made the One Ring, the Ruling Ring that contained the powers of all the others, and controlled them, so that its wearer could see the thoughts of all those that used the lesser rings, could govern all that they did, and in the end could utterly enslave them. He reckoned, however, without the wisdom and subtle perceptions of the Elves. The moment he assumed the One, they were aware of it, and of his secret purpose, and were afraid. They hid the Three Rings, so that not even Sauron ever discovered where they were and they remained unsullied. The others they tried to destroy.
In the resulting war between Sauron and the Elves Middle-Earth, especially in the west, was further ruined. Eregion was captured and destroyed, and Sauron seized many Rings of Power. These he gave, for their ultimate corruption and enslavement, to those who would accept them (out of ambition or greed). Hence the 'ancient rhyme' that appears as the leit-motif of The Lord of the Rings Three Rings for the Elven-Kings under the sky,...

This letter is from 1951 as Tolkien applied pressure on his publishers to make up their minds about publishing LOTR together with the Silmarillion. (Obviously they declined to do so). Anyway, for those of you who don't have access to this book, you're welcome.

Attalus · 11-04-2003, 10:44 AM

Yes, Carpenter says in the Biography that Allen & Unwyn (JRRT's publishers) were quite perplexed by the chaotic state of The Silmarillion and declined to publish it, to JRRT's anger. He actually shopped the two to a few other publishers, without success.

10-24-2003, 01:33 PM	#1
Bombadillo "The Bomb" Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: all over the place Posts: 1,601	The Wearing of Narya When Gandalf faced the Balrog in Moria, he wore Narya. That left him vulnerable to the One Ring's corruptive and compomising power. That decision leads me to my first doubt of Gandalf: What would happen if the One Ring was worn during those 10 days in which they were fighting? It doesn't seem so wizardly wise. I've thought about Narya's healing power. He could have been "fortifying his walls" during battle. But he didn't seem to fully consider what would occur if someone slipped on the One Ring. Surely, he'd be screwed. That would have been worse than anything the Balrog alone could have done to him. Really, he didn't even need to fight the Balrog. He sent it falling to its death, that was all good. Of course, he was pulled down with it, but he is a Maiar; he had so many alternatives. Somebody help me out. I don't feel comfortable going against Tolkien. And please don't flame me. __________________ Could it be that one path to enlightenment leads through insanity?

10-24-2003, 02:24 PM	#3
Attalus Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: On the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 1,125	Remember Frodo asked Galadriel why, when he wore the Ring, he was not aware of the thoughts and actions of the other Bearers. Galdriel responded that, in the first place, he had not tried, and in the second, he would have to train his will to the dominion of others, first. So it wasn't just automatic that the wearer of the One was in charge of all the other Bearers. __________________ "What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial.

10-24-2003, 02:34 PM	#4
*Earniel* The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium) Posts: 14,363	I suppose the bearers of the three Elven rings always wore their rings. (Using it's power is of course quite another thing.) And Frodo had already put on the ring once or twice on his journey to Rivendell. If his putting on the One Ring had affected the bearers of the Three then, they would have known so before Gandalf's fight with the Balrog. If Frodo's putting on the One Ring had indeed affected them, they would have taken measures not to be caught, it would be terribly neglecting of them if they didn't do so before the fellowship set out. So I don't think Gandalf should have worried about Narya when anyone else than Sauron put on the One Ring. Sauron was probably the only one who would be able to use the One Ring to it's full potential. As long as Sauron and his Ring were kept seperate, the Three were supposedly rather safe. Nor do I think the Ring's corruptive powers on the people around it were stronger when somebody wore it, unless -I suppose- the bearer would attempt to use the Ring, which Frodo did not. __________________ We are not things.

10-24-2003, 02:49 PM	#6
Ilúvatar Hobbit Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 37	As has been pointed out by others. I don't think that Gandalf or any of the wearers of the Three Rings had to worry about the One Ring unless it was purposely being used for evil. Gollum never learned how to use it and Frodo never tried. Last edited by Ilúvatar : 10-24-2003 at 02:50 PM.

10-26-2003, 12:16 AM	#9
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	I'm pretty sure that the rings of power only conveyed invisibility to mortals. I.E., Humans (inclluding hobbits). Elves and maia don't seem to become invisible when they wear their rigns. and dwarves might not either. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

10-24-2003, 01:57 PM	#2
*Valandil* High King at Annuminas Administrator Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Wyoming - USA Posts: 10,752	I don't think just ANYONE putting on the Ring would have affected the users of the Three. It didn't seem to bother them whenever Gollum, Bilbo or Frodo had the Ring on. Probably only someone with a very strong will would have affected them... most likely Sauron (else Saruman - very few others of evil bent). And if Sauron got the Ring... all was lost anyway. Faith in the judgement of Gandalf/JRRT restored?

10-24-2003, 02:47 PM	#5
*Valandil* High King at Annuminas Administrator Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Wyoming - USA Posts: 10,752	Coupla things I HAVE wondered about though... we know Celebrimbor became aware of Sauron (I assume through one of the Three) when Sauron first put on the One... 1. Were Elrond, Cirdan and Galadriel aware of Isildur when he put on the One to flee from the orcs? Did that help them piece together what had happened to him... at least to the point the One came off? Of course they wouldn't say so openly... it would be admitting that they held one of the Three. 2. Did the One necessarily automatically confer invisibility? I would think invisibility would be handy when desired, but could be inconvenient if you didn't want it at the moment, but wanted to exercise some other function of the One (like dominion over others... and you want your troops to see you). Like even the movie depicts, I don't imagine the One making Sauron invisible. What if Isildur put on the One and commanded it to make him invisible? Then... because the following ringbearers (Gollum, Bilbo, Frodo), either didn't have thestrength of will to change that... or didn't try, the Ring was sort of "stuck" in the mode of confering invisibility until commanded otherwise (even after over 3000 years). JRRT doesn't seem to hint at either of those that I know of... but what do the rest of you think?

10-26-2003, 02:05 PM	#10
Beor founder of the color blue Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: E-Space Posts: 1,727	I think that each ring has its own little power, like Galadriel's ring helped to sustain things (I think), and Narya was supposed to keep you going, espically when one wearies of tthe road, or something. Also, you could probably decide if you wanted to be invisible or not, if you had the will to do so. I could be of more help if some short guy hadn't stolen mine before I could get time to really use it. Sorry __________________ Well, there it is.

10-26-2003, 03:01 PM	#11
Attalus Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: On the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 1,125	As for whether Isildur would have been able to know the thoughts of those who held the Three, yes, he could have; but, IIRC, at that time the Three were still in hiding, not being worn (or used). It was only after Sauron was known to be bereft of the One that the Elven Rings were used, and we have no information on exactly when that was. __________________ "What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial.

10-27-2003, 11:45 PM	#12
Keith K Elf Lord Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: charlotte, n.c. Posts: 1,081	Is it possible that it was through the use of his Elven ring that Gandalf was able to detect Frodos' use of the One on Amon Hen? He hinted that Sauron almost saw where Frodo was located and that as the "Voice" he communicated with Frodo telling him "fool, take it off". It seems possible to me that the rings could have been in concert with each other during those moments. Very roughly akin to the palantiri. Maybe not completely in tune (since they had never been together), but as focal points for power to be displayed. The Three and the One did have some things in common other than the obvious fact that they were all rings. Particularly when you consider that Sauron had learned all of the Elven-smiths' secrets and then used them to craft the One. While the One might not have been "in" the Three, the Three were definately "in" the One. (Does that make sense?)

10-28-2003, 12:04 AM	#13
*Valandil* High King at Annuminas Administrator Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Wyoming - USA Posts: 10,752	Artanis... thanks for that thread! It WAS interesting, but admittedly a little over my head. Guess I still have much to learn. ("I am an egg" - recognize THAT one?) Have I gotta read all 12 volumes of HoME? And learn Quenya & Sindarin??

11-03-2003, 03:24 PM	#17
Findegil Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Geilenkirchen, Germany Posts: 192	Yes. Keith K I think your theory is good. It is in harmony with the abilities of the rings as we know them, especialy since Fordo is the one that reads the mind of Gandalf in that moment and not the other way around. By the way Artanis, I at least have read all 12 volumes of The History of Middle-Earth and that more than once, and I think there are more members of the board that have done so. Respectfully Findegil

11-04-2003, 10:44 AM	#20
Attalus Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: On the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 1,125	Yes, Carpenter says in the Biography that Allen & Unwyn (JRRT's publishers) were quite perplexed by the chaotic state of The Silmarillion and declined to publish it, to JRRT's anger. He actually shopped the two to a few other publishers, without success. __________________ "What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial.

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