Failure of Love?

[Maedhros]

When you read the Quenta Silmarillion, you get the idea that love is something that is idolized an almost sacred. I mean just look at the examples of: Lúthien and Beren, Húrin and Morwen, Tuor and Idril etc.
Yet there are examples that jump to my mind in contradiction with that:
1.Túrin and Finduilas
2. Eöl and Irissë (Aredhel)
3. Finwë and MÃ*riel

1. In the case of Finduilas, she was in love with Gwindor, but when he returned to Nargothrond, after his imprisionment in Angband, he was not loved anymore by her. I think that this is the first case that I know when an elf love is rejected when there was first love. Can it be a little of shallowness on her part. I wonder if her abandonment by Túrin is a reflection on that?

2. Was there ever true love between them? Could Eöl trick a ñoldorian prince into marrying him and having a child? Was it magic? Look at how it ended with the birth of Maeglin and the ruin of Gondolin.

3. Finwë and MÃ*riel and their love was great and glad but when she bore Fëanor she wanted to leave her hröa. Finwë was sad because MÃ*riel would be away in the raising of Fëanor and he could not have more sons like the others princes of Elves.
Look at the consequences of them, it lead to the Ñoldor leaving Aman and waging a hopeless war on Morgoth!

Perhaps true love is the answer.

[Lizra]

Is there a detectible flaw, or is love just a roll of the dice?

[Linaewen]

Originally posted by Maedhros


1. In the case of Finduilas, she was in love with Gwindor, but when he returned to Nargothrond, after his imprisionment in Angband, he was not loved anymore by her. I think that this is the first case that I know when an elf love is rejected when there was first love. Can it be a little of shallowness on her part. I wonder if her abandonment by Túrin is a reflection on that?

Does it count as shallowness if she was reluctant to fall in love with Túrin in the first place?

Originally posted by Maedhros

2. Was there ever true love between them? Could Eöl trick a ñoldorian prince into marrying him and having a child? Was it magic? Look at how it ended with the birth of Maeglin and the ruin of Gondolin.

I'm hoping you mean Noldorin princess here. I don't think he 'tricked' her, or used 'magic' - after all, she wasn't 'wholly unwilling' to spend her life there with him. However, I don't think she really loved him as such, maybe affection to some degree, but not really loving him. I could be wrong here, though.

Actually, I've always been interested in the types love of Tolkien's world. In some cases, (e.g. Finduilas) it is somewhat like an illness- they can't stop it or get rid of it. On the other hand, you have so many other stories of love that are 'healthy' for the person - some of which were listed by Maedhros.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Maedhros
1.Túrin and Finduilas

I think Túrin and Finduilas were both seduced by Morgoth. They both came under the curse. An interesting question is, would the heart of Finduilas have turned to Túrin if Gwindor had not been such a wreck when he returned from Morgoth's thraldom, or if Gwindor never had been away from Nargothrond? The Gwindor that returned was not the Gwindor that was lost a long time ago. I think it's too simple to call it shallowness on Finduilas' side. Gwindor's spirit was changed and bent. Is Finduilas then to blame if she could not relate to him in the same way as before?

More later ...

[Anglorfin]

Whether or not Turin's and Finduilas' love was influenced by Morgoth, their fate was intertwined at the end. Remember Gwindor saying before he died that Turin must seek out Finduilas. Morgoth might have known of Finduilas through Hurin's watching of his family and made her capture part of his specific agenda.

[Strongbow]

I think i is just like in our times, their are many types and degrees of love, but not all of them make it into the books. The only ones worth noting areeither the best or worse loves. The same holds true in Tolkiens world i suppose

[Artanis]

I believe there was great love between Finduilas and Gwindor, but their love was ruined by the deeds of Morgoth.

2. Eöl and Irissë (Aredhel)

Now this is a tricky one. I feel I don't know enough about Aredhel to understand her motives for marrying Eöl. How could Eöl have persuaded her into marriage if it was not her own will? I doubt if he had such power. I don't think it was true love on his side, only a desire to possess her. Why didn't she realize that, and rejected him?

3. Finwë and MÃ*riel

I think Finwë and MÃ*riel never really stopped loving each other. I suspect Finwë had underlying, unconscious reasons for marrying Indis other than love. He may have been flattered by her love for him, he was lonely, and he also wanted more children.

In Tolkien's world it's not so much whether it's true love or not, I think. What's important is the influence of the Powers of the world, fate, and the choices that were made by each individual. MÃ*riel chose not to return to her rhöa. Finwe chose to marry Indis. Finduilas gave in to her feelings for Túrin.

[Attalus]

I agree with Artanis. Both Turin and Findulias were cursed, and Morgoth, not any failure on their part, caused their love to founder. That said, I admit they both seem a bit flighty. In all of Tolkien, they are the only ones who both abandoned their earlier lovers.

[Rían]

Yes, the Finduilas story was v. unusual.

[Silpion]

I think this is the quote Anglorfin mentioned, that was made by Gwindor to Turin . . .

Haste thee to Nargothrond, and save Finduilas. And this last I say to thee: she alone stands between thee and thy doom. If thou fail her, it shall not fail to find thee. Farewell!

Did this mean that Finduilas was supposed to be the love of Turin? Or, where the words of Gwindor just a desperate attempt to get Turin to make getting Finduilas back his top priority? Events had a good chance of turning out differently if he had found her alive. But, Turin was put under a spell by Glaurung and went on a different journey to find his mother and sister. By the time he did seek out Finduilas, it was to late.

Was their love a "true love" (was it meant to be) or did it come about as part of Morgoth's curse? I always thought Finduilas loved Turin, but not so much the other way around. What I mean is I don't think the same kind of love went both ways.

[BelegS]

Was their love a "true love" (was it meant to be) or did it come about as part of Morgoth's curse? I always thought Finduilas loved Turin, but not so much the other way around. What I mean is I don't think the same kind of love went both ways.

It was a true love. In my view they both loved eachother.

[Sister Golden Hair]

The Silmarillion says that Turin did not return Finduilas' love.

I think in the case of Gwindor, Turin, and Finduilas, this was all a part of the Curse of Hurin, and even perhaps the Doom of the Noldor played a part.

[Lalaith]

Originally posted by Maedhros

3. Finwë and MÃ*riel

Finwë and MÃ*riel and their love was great and glad but when she bore Fëanor she wanted to leave her hröa. Finwë was sad because MÃ*riel would be away in the raising of Fëanor and he could not have more sons like the others princes of Elves.
Look at the consequences of them, it lead to the Ñoldor leaving Aman and waging a hopeless war on Morgoth!

Perhaps true love is the answer.

I wonder why he didn't wait for her return. I mean, the Elves don't leave the world, so why did Finwe not wait for her? Or am I completely wrong here?

[azalea]

I think he just got tired of playing fiddle to an empty theater, if you get my meaning, nudge, nudge,
Seriously, though, I think he was lonely and didn't foresee that dire consequences would result, and maybe a little selfish and prideful, too, which isn't hard to see in a man who fathered Feanor.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Lalaith
I wonder why he didn't wait for her return. I mean, the Elves don't leave the world, so why did Finwe not wait for her? Or am I completely wrong here?

He was lonely and impatient and asked her to come back several times. But the more he pushed, the more she was determant to stay. He met Indis and chose the easy way. Still I think we must remember how unique the situation was, and forgive Finwë his failure. Hë was the only one in Aman who's spouse had 'died'.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

On Turin and Finduilas, for me it was the most beautiful of all Tolkien's 'love stories', since they had to fight a curse and fate (i.e there coudln't be a ton of Eldarin and Mannish marriages, as attested by Aegnor and Andreth) yet they still loved each other, though sadly they never let their feelings be known to each-other.

Then the heart of Finduilas was turned from Gwindor and her love was given to Turin; and Turin loved her but spoke not, being loyal to Gwindor

The fact is Turin didn't know that Finduilas loved him, he thought she loved Gwindor and was sad at the 'change' that had come over him from his time in Angband, so Turin's inherent blindness can be seen as a fault in the fact that they never got together and also Gwindor's words to Finduilas 'convincing' her that Turin would never love her. Yet look at Turin's reaction when he finds out that Finduilas loves him, he rushes off to save her but alas a fat dragon comes between them. Also Gwindor's words to Turin:

Haste Nargothrond and save and this at last I say to thee she alone standy between thee and thy doom! If thou fail her then it shall not fail to find thee. Farewell!

Published Silmarillion; Of Turin Turumbar

Of course his 'doom' to marry Niniel wouldn't have happened if he had save Finduilas and they would have got married but...he failed her. I'd also like to say Turin was a *bit* of a idiot, but was sure a hit with the ladies.

Hë was the only one in Aman who's spouse had 'died'.

Yes and Feanor was the only Elf in Aman whose mother had died AND father. You gotta feel a little sorry for the guy! (This remark is not directed at you Artanis, but all those feanor haters.)

[Silpion]

2. Eöl and Irissë (Aredhel)
2. Was there ever true love between them? Could Eöl trick a ñoldorian princess into marrying him and having a child? Was it magic? Look at how it ended with the birth of Maeglin and the ruin of Gondolin.

I think there was some sort of love between them. After all, Aredhel stayed with him, married him, and bore him a son. I sort of see Aredhel as being restless, headstrong, and a little aimless. Kind of like a Galadriel-lite with a poignant ending.
Eol used his enchantments to lead Aredhel to his house, I don't believe he used the same "magic" to get her to marry him and bear him a son. I think it was one of those opposites attracting type things. Eol was an Elf that seemed to march to the tune of his own drummer. He liked his solitude and gave Aredhel her freedom in the woods of Nan Elmoth with the proviso that she make no contact with the sons of Feanor or other Noldorins. So, although she had freedom, it was a restricted freedom.
I don't think Eol was a saint, I think they both loved each other but that their relationship wouldn't last if Eol kept restricting her like he did. It didn't surprise me that when he went away Maeglin and Aredhel took that opportunity to make a run for it. Although, it was ironic that she would head back to Gondolin (the secret and well guarded city) where she left in the beginning to ride across the land and walk in the forests like she used to do in Valinor.
As for Maeglin, I think his upbringing had a part in making him the way he was. I also think that Maeglin believed that he could become the ruler of Gondolin since Turgon had no heir.

[Lollypopgurl]

With Eol and Aredhel, I always thought that he used magic on her at first, but then she found that her way of life with him was not so bad.

[Rían]

There's a lovely section in HoME 3 on Túrin and Finduilas -

from The Lay of the Children of Húrin by JRRT

-- At Túrin's sorrow
one marvelled and was moved, -- a maiden fair
the frail Finduilas -- that Failivrin,
the glimmering sheen -- on the glassy pools
of Ivrin's lake -- the Elves in love
had named anew. --

...

Yet to Túrin was turned -- her troublous heart
against will and wisdom -- and waking thought:
in dreams she sought him, -- his dark sorrow
with love lightening, -- so that laughter shone
in eyes new-kindled -- and her Elfin name
he eager spake, -- as in endless spring
they fared free-hearted -- through flowers enchanted
with hand in hand -- o'er the happy pastures
of that land that is lit -- by no light of Earth,
by no moon nor sun, -- down mazy ways
to the black abysmal -- brink of waking.

From woe unhealed -- the wounded heart
of Túrin the tall -- was turned to her....

(I can't reproduce the spacing, so I put dashes to indicate the space gap between phrases.)

[Eärloth]

Originally posted by Maedhros
In the case of Finduilas, she was in love with Gwindor, but when he returned to Nargothrond, after his imprisionment in Angband, he was not loved anymore by her. I think that this is the first case that I know when an elf love is rejected when there was first love. Can it be a little of shallowness on her part. I wonder if her abandonment by Túrin is a reflection on that?

It says in Quenta Silmarillion 'thus her heart was against her will turned from Gwindor to Túrin' -- not really shallowness