Who's the real hero of "Lord of the Rings"?

[Psycho Kitty]

To which I would add "remember that he deliberately plotted to kill Sam, and to relish the killing". If premeditation of murder and "malicious mischief-making" as azalea put it can be accounted to instinct and raw desire for survival and the Ring, then in the name of Elbereth and of Luthien, what cannot?

to which I would add remember that this ["malicious mischief-making"] happened when he FIRST got the ring. do you really think he put the ring on and bam he was an animal and smeagol was gone? no. thats just dumb. it takes time to corrupt even the weak. and being animal like DOESNT mean losing your brain power. obviously he could still talk and still communicate with people. so obviously he could still think. and feeling pleasure in killing something because you hate it only supports what ive been saying all along. that theres no stupid psychological barriers getting in the way of his basic desires like there is in you and me. sometimes id like to kill people but i dont. cause i worry about stupid things like what other people would think of me and what they would do to me and even the feelings of the poor stupid fool i wanna kill. gollum has had these petty human morals mostly stripped from him and he can act and KILL like an animal would.

Also, don't forget that he hated all Baggins because of Bilbo. Is this what you admire, despisal of a group, because of an individual?

nope i just admire him.

Regarding greed: it's all relative. It's not something so simplistic as "be like Gollum, he only wanted fish." Gollum's greed was merely different from ours.

no its just you were making the argument that gollum is greedy because he wants fish three times a day. my point was in the face of people craving power and gold and all this stuff how can you possibly condem gollum of all people as being greedy. there are better characters in the book to represent the ideal of greed in my opinion.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

You know, not nearly all animals act like your talking. There are hundreds of species of gregarious and extremely social animals. Also, premeditation and planning is simply not animal.

[Psycho Kitty]

Also, premeditation and planning is simply not animal.

uh i think quite a few biologists, zoologists and pet owners would take issue with that statement. ever seen lions hunt?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

There is a big difference between hunting and stalking and what Gollum was doing. His tracking and hunting of the Hobbits, I think wouldn't be against that. But his deliberate planning, I disagree about.

[azalea]

Originally posted by Psycho Kitty
to which I would add remember that this ["malicious mischief-making"] happened when he FIRST got the ring. do you really think he put the ring on and bam he was an animal and smeagol was gone? no. thats just dumb. it takes time to corrupt even the weak. and being animal like DOESNT mean losing your brain power. obviously he could still talk and still communicate with people. so obviously he could still think. and feeling pleasure in killing something because you hate it only supports what ive been saying all along. that theres no stupid psychological barriers getting in the way of his basic desires like there is in you and me. sometimes id like to kill people but i dont. cause i worry about stupid things like what other people would think of me and what they would do to me and even the feelings of the poor stupid fool i wanna kill. gollum has had these petty human morals mostly stripped from him and he can act and KILL like an animal would.

I see what you mean; however, I happen to think that Gollum did/would feel guilt. It would manifest itself as self-pity, but I think somewhere inside he would hate himself even more for having killed (Sam, Frodo, or whomever). I think self-loathing is a good term to describe his state -- I think he hated himself because of both what he had thrown away (if only he hadn't killed Deagol and been a borderline nasty, he might have avoided his current situation) and what he had become. He hated himself but turned that hate outwards onto any who crossed his path (men, elves, orcs). He was crafty yet simple; the simplicity was also a factor in his actions and reactions. Okay, now I'm just rambling.

[Elfhelm]

A puppet is different from an animal. An animal might kill for food, but some, like jays, kill for territory. In these cases, the killing is instinctive; survival based. Humans also kill for these reasons, but they use petty "morals" to justify their killing. Under all the talk, however, it's still territory and food that governs human war and other forms of murder. Gollum, however, is not motivated by territory or by hunger. He has no will left and is just a shell of a being that is totally manipulated and enslaved by the Ring. He's not even like a drug addict because the drugs don't make them kill and steal, even though they would prefer that lame excuse. He's more like a religious fanatic that is full of justifications for his self-loathing and reprehensible stances, but he's really just a tool for another being's desires.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

As a side note, I'm curious as to how food and territory governed the atrocities committed by Saddam Hussein, or Elizabeth Balory?

[Elfhelm]

It IS a side note, which some intelligent educated sociologist or psychologist who specializes in megalomania will have to explain.

My point here is, Gollum is a follower, an adherent, a slave, a puppet, and not animalistic at all.

My point is also that drugs do not make people kill and steal. If they choose to blame the drugs, that's because they are whiners. Religion, however, does tell people it is OK to kill and steal, and promises rewards if you obey, just like the Ring.

p.s. That is why Gollum is tie with the rope. It symbolizes his enslavement to the will of the Ring.

p.p.s. Sam is the real hero of the story.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

What religion are you referring to?

p. p. s. I'm beginning to agree. Though I still think Frodo is very much a hero.

[Linaewen]

*sigh* Still can't decide between Sam and Frodo, as was shown by the Most Impressive Male character thread. Frodo was the Ringbearer, but Sam performed more notable deeds. Ah!

[Psycho Kitty]

Originally posted by Elfhelm
Gollum, however, is not motivated by territory or by hunger. He has no will left and is just a shell of a being that is totally manipulated and enslaved by the Ring. He's not even like a drug addict because the drugs don't make them kill and steal, even though they would prefer that lame excuse. He's more like a religious fanatic that is full of justifications for his self-loathing and reprehensible stances, but he's really just a tool for another being's desires.

hes nothing like a religious fanatic what are you talking about? of course drug addiction makes peope kill and steal. and hes very much like a drug addict in so many ways. his mind has been completely altered by the 'substance' that he craves. he no longer cares for anything other then the most simple things to keep him alive JUST like an addict. if that substance is taken away from him hes willing to go to the ends of the earth to get it. even kill for it if he has to. he must have the substance with him and in his posession but he cant deal with actually 'using' the substance to often because otherwise it would overwelm him. this substance has actually physically changed his brain just like drugs do.

[Elfhelm]

I agree about the addictive behavior. But I don't think you're right about the nature of addiction. Although I agree about most of the rest of what you said, the primary point I know from experience is not true is this:

Drugs do not MAKE people steal and kill. Even in the deepest part of addiction, it is still a conscious decision. Only a coward, loser, whiner would blame an external force for their own choices. I will cite William S. Burroughs as an authority, maybe throw in Jim Carroll. Both will back me up on this.

The fact is, Gollum is not beyond the point where he can choose. Like the suicide bombers, he has not totally lost himself. But the Ring is making him promises. In their case, it's 72 virgins or some such harps and wings nonses. In Sam's case it was the most beautiful garden. In Gollum's case, we don't know the exact promise, but certainly it is as glittering as the nonsense the religious leaders promise those who kill for them.

[Psycho Kitty]

Sure it’s a conscious decision. But the mind is really just a machine. And anything that can corrupt it will make certain decisions much more likely. I have my doubts gollum really could have made ‘the right decisions’ in the face of such enormous evil corrupting power. I think it was like 1000 heroin addictions to him and it stripped away so much of his ‘human’ complexity and left that ‘flee or kill or be killed’ mind set. Even smokers have a really hard time resisting the urge to do something they know will kill THEM eventually. And the ring was way beyond any normal drug. I don’t think he had a chance.