The Idea of Slash

[Sister Golden Hair]

Hey Rian, Sam was a gentleman's gentleman.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
Elfhelm, I'm only partly understanding what you're talking about...

Main Entry: -philia
Function: noun combining form
Etymology: New Latin, from Greek philia friendship, from philos dear
1 : friendly feeling toward <Francophilia>

Main Entry: aga·pe
Pronunciation: ä-'gä-(")pA, 'ä-g&-"pA
Function: noun
Etymology: Late Latin, from Greek agapE, literally, love
Date: 1607

Main Entry: amour
Pronunciation: &-'mur, ä-, a-
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, love, affection, from Middle French, from Old Provençal amor, from Latin, from amare to love
Date: 14th century

Main Entry: Eros
Pronunciation: 'er-"äs, 'ir-
Function: noun
Etymology: Greek ErOs, from erOs sexual love; akin to Greek erasthai to love, desire
1 : the Greek god of erotic love -- compare CUPID
2 : the sum of life-preserving instincts that are manifested as impulses to gratify basic needs, as sublimated impulses, and as impulses to protect and preserve the body and mind -- compare DEATH INSTINCT
3 a : love conceived in the philosophy of Plato as a fundamental creative impulse having a sensual element b often not capitalized : erotic love or desire

[viggosbeard]

Sam and Frodo were not Homosexual so stop being silly. Sam and Frodo had a loving relationship yes, but they were not in love in the physical sense. If people cant understand the special bond that develops between people under extreme circumstances then you really are in trouble. I think a lot of this dependance, trust and love came from JRR's experience in the great war, I think a lot of militaRY personnel who have served in conflict tend to develop close relationships with the people that have their lives in their hands - theres a big difference in that and hopping into the sack with a mate !

Or have I missed the joke and its a wind - up ?

Also, excellent point Rian, spot on.

[Elfmaster XK]

Originally posted by viggosbeard
Or have I missed the joke and its a wind - up ?

Nope, this is no joke. Slash exists for us smutty, sick and wrong people who just like to be silly, really.

if youve got a dirty mind then i could possbly see frodo and sam, and when your watching the movie, i could see someone perverted thinking about aragorn and legolas in moria

but really, how sex obsessed are people?

That question is unanswerable. We're all gutter minded, you should know that.

But really, people, with lines like "Aragorn, Toss me," from Gimli, it's just asking for people to get slashy ideas.

I realise most people dislike slash, think it's sick, stupid, corrupted, whatever, but I like it. Though must confess, am more into slashing other stories, as LotR has valid reasons for Sam's affection for Frodo and such as pointed out by Rian.

Nobody kill me.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Rian, do you remember the tv show "Family Affair?" Reminds me of Uncle Bill, and Mr. French. ....
Hey Rian, Sam was a gentleman's gentleman.

Yes, I do - that's a perfect example! I wonder how many Americans here have seen that show?

I'm not sure what you mean by that, SGH - IIRC, a "gentleman's gentleman' refers to a gentleman's valet (like a personal butler) - someone very high up on the servant scale. Sam was Frodo's gardener, although as Frodo pointed out once somewhere in LoTR, gardeners are held in high esteem (or something like that). Also, Frodo and Bilbo don't appear to have had any other servants (at least no other servants were mentioned), but I can't picture them doing their own laundry! They probably sent it out to the drycleaners

Any help from real Englishmen/women out there on the servant concept? I read a lot of Dickens, Jane Austin, Wilkie Collins, etc. who are long-dead British authors whose writings contain lots about servants, but I have no real knowledge, like an older Englishman might. However, in the light of my readings, Sam and Frodo's relationship makes perfect sense. I was very curious to see how they would handle that in the movie, since a lot of the movie crowd would have no clue about the meaning of Sam's calling Frodo "Mister Frodo". They seem to have thrown in a few "Mr. Frodo"s along with the plain-vanilla "Frodo"s.

[Rían]

Hey, I see a couple of people from England understand what I'm saying

[Rían]

Originally posted by Elfhelm
Sam truly loves in the agape sense, not the eros or philia sense of the word. The fourth type (amour) is what Aragorn has for Arwen. Sam's eros love is for Rosie. I think Eowyn has eros love for Aragorn but settles for agape love for Faramir (which in the movie, so far, is more than he deserves!)

I think what Elfhelm is referring to is the 4 words for love in Greek - agape, eros, philia and storge. Often these words are used when talking about Christianity, because the New Testament is written in Greek, and mentions all 4 types, IIRC. Briefly, agape is "brotherly love" or "Christian love" in the best sense of the word (i.e., NOT as practiced by hypocrites!, but the ideal), eros is sexual/romantic love, phileo is friendship and storge is affection (like parent/child). Anyone that knows better, please correct me! but I think that's about right.

[Elfhelm]

Actually, since the topic was Plato's definitions, I was using those words in the context of Plato's Symposium, written several hundred years B.C. But later Christian theologists did refer to Plato's Symposium and did borrow the words.

My point was that Platonic love doesn't just mean to like someone without sex. That can be philia friendship, or agape brotherly. Love according to Plato means to want to posess beauty. And the only place we see that in Sam is for his gardening, and in the Choices chapter when he is tempting to turn the whole world into a garden, which is actually quite disgusting, don't you think?

Anyway, SGH, the definition of platonic in the common sense is not Plato's definition, so we can both be right.

And Rian when I said the fourth type I meant the definition added by the romance writers at Agincourt.

[Rían]

Sorry, I guess I didn't see the Plato reference .... well, whoever asked about those words probably got a little more than they planned on Interesting stuff, though.

[Legolas_Frodo_Aragorn]

i dont think anyones supposed to be gay, but at this site [deleted]
there is the "secret" diaries of the people of LOTR, and thier all gay except frodo. its pretty funny

[Elf.Freak]

i found this site that had this article (it was Frodo/Sam based) and it had a really disturbing picture of Sam and Frodo kissing. eww! (i think it's safer NOT to post the site or i'll get bombarded by angry fans)

[crickhollow]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Any help from real Englishmen/women out there on the servant concept? I read a lot of Dickens, Jane Austin, Wilkie Collins, etc. who are long-dead British authors whose writings contain lots about servants, but I have no real knowledge...

I'm rather in the same boat, but when I see Sam Gamgee, it makes me think of another Sam. Pickwick Papers anyone? Sam Weller takes care of Mr. Pickwick in the same manner, although Frodo isn't as gullible as Pickwick is.