The Idea of Slash

Firhithiel Greenleaf · 01-10-2003, 02:36 AM

If you like the idea of slash -- Frodo/Sam, Merry/Pippin, Aragorn/Legolas...this is the thread for you. I'm just making this an introduction to what I hope will be a nice conversation about slash. After all, it's very yummy. I don't understand what people have against gay people. I mean, really!! I haven't found any people on this forum that like the idea of LotR slash. Frankly, I'm disappointed. If any of you do, please reply... I want to know I'm not alone! --F. G.--

**Nurvingiel** · 01-10-2003, 03:38 AM

I seem to say this a lot, but it definately applies to this particular thread.

LOTR is so diverse you can find anything in it! I mean anything! You are definately not alone in thinking Sam and Frodo love each other romantically (I'm referring to the example in your signature), but I don't share this interpretation.

Frodo and Sam have a deep and unique friendship that you rarely see. It's the kind that I have only read about in books about great heroes. They would do anything for each other - they're completely loyal and devoted. They love each other, but not romantically. I believe two people can be connected like this without any romance.

My Frodo and Sam argument can also apply to Merry and Pippin. They were great friends before the Fellowship, but in any group of four, people are bound to pair off. Rephrase, if the four people in a group have an equal respect for one another - as the four Hobbits do - then it's natural that they will fall into two pairs. This doesn't divide the group at all.

It's perfectly natural for Frodo and Sam's friendship to grow even stronger while on this quest. Merry and Pippin inevitably 'pair off', and their friendship is also strengthened. This might have happened anyway, since Merry and Pippin are an excellent team.

I'm not doing the best job at explaining my theory, but I think that in any group larger than three, smaller subgroups will form.

Your suggestion of Aragorn and Legolas doesn't make any sense. Aragorn loves Arwen, not Eowyn, Legolas, or anyone else.

The Fellowship was a brotherhood. In my interpretation, the subgroups, or the 'best friend' pairs are Frodo and Sam, Merry and Pippin, Aragorn and Gandalf, Legolas and Gimli, and Boromir. Obviously, deep friendship isn't confined to my list thingy.

What you see as romantic love, I interpret as the love of deep friendship. I don't think Tolkien was trying to write about the kind of love you describe.

And sorry, I am actually strait, I notice you don't want me to post in here. But once you post a thread, anyone can share their views with you whether you wish to read them or not.

Someone who is gay won't necessarily agree with you, or with me. Our own personalities dictate what we get out of LOTR, because you can find anything.

One last question, what exactly is "slash"? Is it because you write Frodo 'slash' Sam?

Cheers

**Nurvingiel** · 01-10-2003, 03:44 AM

I will also add that I think being gay is completely fine, I just don't think Tolkien was writing about anyone gay.

Miranda · 01-10-2003, 05:05 AM

I've had a nose at a couple of LOTR slash pieces and thought they were plausible and some of the writing is okay. I have nothing about people being gay- hey most of my friends are (dancers, it happens!) I can seriously see this thread getting out of control though!!! Mx

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 01-10-2003, 11:29 AM

There is nothing gay in LotRs. Any element of homosexuality that is seen in that story has been read into it by the reader.

Artanis · 01-10-2003, 12:21 PM

I've read some LotR slash fanfic, but most of the stories were poorly written and I lost interest. I wonder though, why the vast majority of fanfic is slash? Nothing wrong with that, I'm just curious.

Elf.Freak · 01-10-2003, 12:24 PM

you're not alone! i found this really funny LOTR slash fic called [edited] (i'd rate it PG though).

well...i found it funny...

[I edited that out -- I think the language is questionable -- azalea]

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 01-10-2003, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Artanis
I've read some LotR slash fanfic, but most of the stories were poorly written and I lost interest. I wonder though, why the vast majority of fanfic is slash? Nothing wrong with that, I'm just curious.

Indeed. I have seen tons of it at the Henneth Annun-Stories by Author site. I believe I have seen your fanfic there Artanis.

Elfhelm · 01-10-2003, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
There is nothing gay in LotRs. Any element of homosexuality that is seen in that story has been read into it by the reader.

True, but... I can't help but wonder how the lifestyle of some of Tolkien's colleagues - bachelor writers who love their pipes and home comforts, etc. - got into the story. There's no sexuality at all, but it is possible to avoid the opposite gender all your life while, oh let's say, go to operas and having nice doilies on your beautiful furniture and getting upset about the rough guys and the way they treat your dishes! If he's not exactly gay, he is at the very least a Virgo!

**Nurvingiel** · 01-10-2003, 03:36 PM

Hey I'm a Virgo! Who hates smoking... never mind. Maybe he just didn't want to write women? Or maybe he didn't feel comfortable writing women characters? Except Eowyn and Galadriel are great! Success there.

Elfhelm · 01-10-2003, 03:47 PM

OMG! I just accidentally ran into an Arwen/Eowyn fanfic.

Elfhelm · 01-10-2003, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
Hey I'm a Virgo!

No offense to 1/12th of the population, but is it true about being very particular and cleanly? I don't really hold much with Astrology except to crack jokes.

**Nurvingiel** · 01-10-2003, 06:30 PM

I am clean..? I usually smell nice... um but I like the outdoors so I don't object in the slightest to dirt under my fingernails, mud on my boots, and rain in my lunchbucket. If that's what you meant... erm, anyway...

Maybe it's the Viggo/Virgo connection. Only one letter difference...

Anyway, off topic. I think Firhithiel Greenleaf needs to come and defend his (?) original point if he wants this thread to continue on topic...

And even though I have issues with LOTR slash, that's only because I don't think that's what Tolkien was writing about.

Elfhelm · 01-10-2003, 06:39 PM

I'm sure it's not the gayness of the slash, but the uncharacteristic behavior of the characters that turns people off.

Artanis · 01-10-2003, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I believe I have seen your fanfic there Artanis.

Oh yes? Must have been written by the other half of my split personality.

Coney · 01-10-2003, 06:59 PM

Anyone going to be really generous and provide a link to a good example of this stuff? (I've had a sniff around and found some really bad wotsit).

Yazad · 01-10-2003, 07:05 PM

I often get ticked at everyone's use of the word "gay" in this forum (entmoot) to indicate "bad" or "lame" or "stupid". It really ticks me off. I'd think that a group of folks literate enough to be interested in Tolkien's works would be a little more respectful and tolerant.

******************************

Anyway, before this thread gets bumped because it doesn't have much to do with the movie, let me quickly try to save it.

There was a tremendous amount of criticism of Bakshi (damn, alls I can talk about is Bakshi!) for representing Sam as a bit homosexual in his film. Personally I think that anyone who gets up in arms about that depiction hasn't read the Lord of the Rings. Whether or not Sam (and/or Frodo) is gay isn't really the point, but that Bakshi tread that line shows that he was very attuned to the story.

There are many segments of the book where the affection which Sam has for Frodo treads the line of what we would modernly think of as gay (probably due to our homophobia). The quote in Firhithiel's sig is only one. There's also a segment in the orc tower near Cirith Ungol where Sam is dreaming for "only one more kiss, one more touch of his hand". Sure that may just be a brotherly type of love that we don't understand, but it may also be something else, and to say that any portrayal of their relationship as "more than friends" is entirely inaccurate is, I think to ignore a significant subcurrent of the text and adhere to what one's own mind wants to "hear".

All that said: What's slash fiction???

Yazad

Elfhelm · 01-10-2003, 07:15 PM

I think you're right that Hobbit's kisses are not sexual and any sexuality we ascribe to them are from our own fears. Gondoran men kiss each other, too. Affection is a wonderful thing, and to confuse it with sex cheapens it (not that I'm saying YOU did).

Finmandos12 · 01-10-2003, 07:17 PM

Quote:

to say that any portrayal of their relationship as "more than friends" is entirely inaccurate is, I think, to ignore a significant subcurrent of the text and adhere to what one's own mind wants to "hear".

You're the one adhering to what one's own mind wants to "hear". Tolkien was a strong Christian, naturally he would not hide a homosexual subcurrent in his book. The reason it seems like Sam is gay in some parts of the book is the national mind nowadays. People are obsessed with sex and try to put it into everything.

Artanis · 01-10-2003, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Yazad
I often get ticked at everyone's use of the word "gay" in this forum (entmoot) to indicate "bad" or "lame" or "stupid".

When did this happen? It's not my impression at all.

About the relationship between Sam and Frodo: I see it as an example of the affectionate, deep and very English friendship. They know each other well, and love each other, and as I see it, this is pure platonic love.

01-10-2003, 02:36 AM	#1
Firhithiel Greenleaf Hobbit Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Mirkwood with my beloved!! Posts: 24	The Idea of Slash (Straight People Begone!) If you like the idea of slash -- Frodo/Sam, Merry/Pippin, Aragorn/Legolas...this is the thread for you. I'm just making this an introduction to what I hope will be a nice conversation about slash. After all, it's very yummy. I don't understand what people have against gay people. I mean, really!! I haven't found any people on this forum that like the idea of LotR slash. Frankly, I'm disappointed. If any of you do, please reply... I want to know I'm not alone! --F. G.-- __________________ ~~In Moria, after Frodo gets hit by the "orc-chieftain", The Fellowship of the Ring~~ Aragorn picked up Frodo where he lay by the wall and made for the stair, pushing Merry and Pippin in front of him. The others followed; but Gimli had to be dragged away by Legolas: in spite of the peril he lingered by Balin's tomb with his head bowed. Boromir hauled the eastern door to, grinding upon its hinges: it had great iron rings on either side, but could not be fastened. "I am all right," gasped Frodo. "I can walk. Put me down!" Aragorn nearly dropped him in his amazement. "I thought you were dead!" he cried. ~~While Frodo, Sam, and Gollum are climbing the Stairs of Cirith Ungol, in The Two Towers~~ And so Gollum found them hours later, when he returned, crawling and creeping down the path out of the gloom ahead. Sam sat propped against the stone, his head dropping sideways and his breathing heavy. In his lap lay Frodo's head, drowned deep in sleep; upon his white forehead lay one of Sam's brown hands, and the other lay softly upon his master's breast. Peace was in both their faces. If that isn't a suggestion that they're in love, I don't know what is!!!

01-10-2003, 05:05 AM	#4
Miranda 'Bohemian princess of Covent Garden Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: The Mill Posts: 544	I've had a nose at a couple of LOTR slash pieces and thought they were plausible and some of the writing is okay. I have nothing about people being gay- hey most of my friends are (dancers, it happens!) I can seriously see this thread getting out of control though!!! Mx __________________ There's only us, there's only this, forget regret or life is yours to miss. No other road, no other way, no day but today.

01-10-2003, 11:29 AM	#5
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	There is nothing gay in LotRs. Any element of homosexuality that is seen in that story has been read into it by the reader. __________________ "Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

01-10-2003, 12:21 PM	#6
Artanis Greatest Elven woman of Aman Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7 Posts: 4,285	I've read some LotR slash fanfic, but most of the stories were poorly written and I lost interest. I wonder though, why the vast majority of fanfic is slash? Nothing wrong with that, I'm just curious. __________________ --Life is hard, and then we die.

01-10-2003, 12:24 PM	#7
Elf.Freak Orli's lil fan Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Sugar World/Orlando Bloom Cloud Posts: 464	you're not alone! i found this really funny LOTR slash fic called [edited] (i'd rate it PG though). well...i found it funny... [I edited that out -- I think the language is questionable -- azalea] __________________ >>--elven arrow--> ~ Give a man a fish and he'll feed for a day, give me a fish and you'll only get it back! ~ I've gotta new avatar! looks kinda like me...anime style! ~ LOST: Orlando Bloom. If found, please send him straight to Elf.Freak

01-10-2003, 03:47 PM	#11
Elfhelm Marshal of the Eastmark Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 1,412	OMG! I just accidentally ran into an Arwen/Eowyn fanfic. __________________ cya

01-10-2003, 06:39 PM	#14
Elfhelm Marshal of the Eastmark Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 1,412	I'm sure it's not the gayness of the slash, but the uncharacteristic behavior of the characters that turns people off. __________________ cya

01-10-2003, 06:59 PM	#16
Coney The Buddy Rabbit Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Trapped in the headlights.. Posts: 3,372	Anyone going to be really generous and provide a link to a good example of this stuff? (I've had a sniff around and found some really bad wotsit). __________________ Blessed are the cracked, they let the light in Beatallica

01-10-2003, 07:05 PM	#17
Yazad Enting Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 56	I often get ticked at everyone's use of the word "gay" in this forum (entmoot) to indicate "bad" or "lame" or "stupid". It really ticks me off. I'd think that a group of folks literate enough to be interested in Tolkien's works would be a little more respectful and tolerant. ****************************** Anyway, before this thread gets bumped because it doesn't have much to do with the movie, let me quickly try to save it. There was a tremendous amount of criticism of Bakshi (damn, alls I can talk about is Bakshi!) for representing Sam as a bit homosexual in his film. Personally I think that anyone who gets up in arms about that depiction hasn't read the Lord of the Rings. Whether or not Sam (and/or Frodo) is gay isn't really the point, but that Bakshi tread that line shows that he was very attuned to the story. There are many segments of the book where the affection which Sam has for Frodo treads the line of what we would modernly think of as gay (probably due to our homophobia). The quote in Firhithiel's sig is only one. There's also a segment in the orc tower near Cirith Ungol where Sam is dreaming for "only one more kiss, one more touch of his hand". Sure that may just be a brotherly type of love that we don't understand, but it may also be something else, and to say that any portrayal of their relationship as "more than friends" is entirely inaccurate is, I think to ignore a significant subcurrent of the text and adhere to what one's own mind wants to "hear". All that said: What's slash fiction??? Yazad

01-10-2003, 07:15 PM	#18
Elfhelm Marshal of the Eastmark Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 1,412	I think you're right that Hobbit's kisses are not sexual and any sexuality we ascribe to them are from our own fears. Gondoran men kiss each other, too. Affection is a wonderful thing, and to confuse it with sex cheapens it (not that I'm saying YOU did). __________________ cya

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