Death Of Sauron. Spoilers

[andustar]

I have to agree with you, Darth and fat middle.

Samwise, I don't think Sauron was destroyed.

For instance, Gandalf says this, confirming what Fat Middle wrote : (from the Last Debate)

Iif it [the Ring, not sauron!!!!!] is destroyed, then he will fall: and his fall will be so low that none can forsee his arising ever again. For he will lose the best part of the strength that was native to him in the beginning, and all that was made or begun with that power will crumble, and he will be maimed for ever, becoming a mere spirit of malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot again grow again or take shape.

There, doesn't this match word for word what Fat Middle said?

Anyway, I am prepared to accept Gandalf's authority on this point, him being a Maiar in Middle Earth himself .

[Fat middle]

wow!
you're master finding quotes!!

[samwise of the shire]

(It stretched out towards them a vast threatening hand, terrible but impotent: for even as it leaned over them, a great wind took it, and it was all blown away, and passed) Um notice a great wind took it and passed away.
Would'nt the shadow be Sauron considering it came from over the mountains surrounding Mordor and it was like a hand trying to grab the lands of the west but then the WIND took it and PASSED IT AWAY, sounds as if the shadow was disintergrated and I would say that when a wind blows through some smoke the smoke would be DESINTERGRATE as in being DESTROYED never to come back again.

[Darth Tater]

To clear up an earlier point Sam, It is clearly stated in Appendix A (I'll find the quote later if you need it) That Sauron did not DIE at the downfall of Numenor, he simply lost the ability to take on a human form. Passed away could mean any number of things, and it is obviously vague on purpose. However, Tolkien explains it much later, ie the quote Andustar has supplied. And, if you wanna get technical, the particles that are found in smoke never dissapear: They exist forever and someday, when the earth is destroyed, they will float out into space and help for new galaxies and solar systems. How interesting!

[Shanamir Duntak]

Smoke particle attach to clouds and rain down to earth, where they enter the ground.

Where else do you think acid rain comes from?

[andustar]

yup Darth's right

and as for how I found the quote... er.... I was looking for the bit with Eowyn and the Nazgul for Trivia game and the book opened there. I suddenly thought that this quote would apply here
Pure luck

LOL pollution is actually Sauron particles? okay, okay...

[Ñólendil]

Sauron did die in almost the same sense as an Elf does, in that Maiar and Elves do not have freedom from the Circles of the World, but 'die' in a sense. Or can. They can lose their lives. Sauron was incarnated, and was killed, as far as a Maia can be killed; i.e., as you say he was destroyed [his body was destroyed and his spirit reduced to impotence, but able to rebuild again because of his possession of the Ring]. By the Ring he was able to return from death.

Darth, I convinced you Sauron didn't die? My my. I must have meant it in the same sense you do, in that he didn't die like Men die. Ultimately, I guess he did and he didn't, it depends on your point of view.

He died because his physical form was destroyed and his spirit was severed from that form. He didn't die because the Ainur who entered Eä must remain there (specifically in Arda) until it's End. His spirit cannot leave the World like Men do. Or you could say he didn't die in the Downfall because although his incarnated form was destroyed he could return, while he did die in the destruction of Barad-dur because he was reduced to impotence and would not return again. This is the sort of death Saruman met on a lower level. Here we have a poor reduced incarnated form of a spirit of a High Order, a spirit who fell and is killed (as I said on a lower level than Sauron). He will not return again (this is said in Unfinished Tales, Of the Istari).

So I guess he did die -- and he didn't. It largely depends on what you regard as 'death'.

[ringbearer]

When an Elf dies their spirit goes to the West(heaven). In Lotr Sauron's spirit tries to go to the West, but it is denied. The same thing happens to Saruman's spirit...a wind from the West blows it away. This is like banishment for all eternity with no chance of redemption...spiritual death is true death.

[Ñólendil]

Elves aren't meant to remain in the Halls of Mandos forever after 'death' though (it's happened a few times). They get their old body back and return to Middle-earth (if possible and if their home had been there) or remain in Valinor (or go to Eressea). So it's not like the = of Heaven in Christian theology.

So I'm not so sure Saruman and Sauron tried to go there after the destruction of their forms. Possibly Saruman yearned for it, or expected something, that's why his spirit looked to the west. But in any case they weren't reduced to nill, which was impossible. They were simply incapable of returning to the Maian = of life. But this falls back on what one defines as 'life' and 'death'.

In my opinion

[The Eye of Fangorn]

According to a rumour that I have heard on Imladris.net is that during the council, Elrond will be telling the members what happened in the battle when Sauron fell.

Yes it is not in the books but it could have happened like that.

[Darth Tater]

Actually, many trustworthy sources (even Sir Ian Mckellen!) have confermend that Gandalf tells Frodo about this at their meeting, and there are flashbacks

[ArwenEvenstar]

Originally posted by Comic Book Guy 2001
Ok theres not much to go on this but on a website it says that Sauron will be a man clad in spiked armour. When the ring is destroyed barad-dur falls apart and Sauron flys from it onto a spike.

so far we've heard rumors about to ppls getting spiked!

[ringbearer]

Originally posted by The Eye of Fangorn
According to a rumour that I have heard on Imladris.net is that during the council, Elrond will be telling the members what happened in the battle when Sauron fell.

Yes it is not in the books but it could have happened like that.

Uh, sorry but that is in the book. Elrond describes the Last Alliance in the chapter "The Council of Elrond".

[olorin7]

Sauron can not be killed. he is a maia. he can be forced from his physical body, as he has been three times, once after the fall of numenor, once at the end of the second age, and when the ring was destroyed. it is said that when the ring was destroyed that he no longer had any real threatening power and would not be able to take physical shape again. it is also said that after the fall of numenor that he could no longer take a pleasing physical apperance, that his skin was chared and foul to look upon. this leads you to believe that he still holds his human looking form that he had in numenor, only now it has be mutilated.

[Lightice]

Sauron wasn't actually destroyed either. In the books, Gandalf tells, that if the Ring is destroyed, Sauron will become small spirit of evil that gnaws itself in shadows with no power rise or take form. Sauron just lost so much of his powers in destruction of the Ring, that he could never build another empire of evil.
I read that part yesterday, when I read the book about twentieth time, so I can be pretty positive about it. I can't tell Gandalfs actual words, becouse I don't have english version of it at hand and I doubt, that most of people in these forum will understand finnish.

[Comic Book Guy]

'Concerning this thing, my lords, you now all know enough for theunderstanding of our plight, and of Sauron's. If he regains it, your valouris vain, and his victory will be swift and complete: so complete that nonecan foresee the end of it while this world lasts. If it is destroyed, then he will fall; and his fall will be so low that none can foresee his arising ever again. For he will lose the best part of the strength that was native to him in his beginning, and all that was made or begun with that power will crumble, and he will be maimed for ever, becoming a mere spirit of malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot again grow or take shape. And so a great evil of this world will be removed.

I believe thats the quote you're looking for.

[zavron]

What the....How? The? What?

[Inderjit Sanghera]

On the cast list, for 'Return of the King', on IMDB, it has the name of the stunt actor who played Sauron in the Fellowship. So I think that is a good as confirmation as you can get that Sauron will be in ROTK.

[Vader]

Sauron doesn't die when the ring is destroyed. Gandalf states that he diminishes and is reduced to gnawing on himself in utter darkness. They also hint in ROTK that the palantir from Bara dur after the ring is destroyed would show this.

[BeardofPants]

You know that Sauron's earlier incarnation was as a cat right? *Imagines Sauron gnawing on his leg.* LOL!