the Grey Havens

[Wilma Smith]

This may be a silly question... but where do the elves go when they sail on the white ships from the Grey Havens, and why can only elves go? Is it something I can find in the Silmarillion?

[juntel]

yes, the Silmarillion will tell you.


(yipppppeeee! I was able to post again outside the General section!)

[Wilma Smith]

where?

[juntel]

They go to Valinor.

Now i'll let the real experts give a longer answer!

[ringbearer]

They go to Valinor...a kind of half,heaven like place. But, not only Elves...Frodo, Bilbo and eventually Sam went, because they all were Ringbearers.

[Fat middle]

hehe, juntel, close but...

actually they didn't go to Valinor but to Tol Eressea, an island close to Valinor but inhabbited only by elves.

but perhaps they could make atrip to Valinor every now and then. for summer perhaps...

[Selwythe]

Legolas went after a while and Gimli went with him since Galadriel obtained permission to enter for him.

[juntel]

bah! close enough!

[Wilma Smith]

so where do men go when they die? i've read through part of The Silmarillion , but it seems like the elves don't really know this

[Ñólendil]

The idea is that no one knows for sure, not Elves or Men while they live, nor even the Valar (save maybe Manwë and possibly Mandos, but they have not revealed it if they do know). They gain freedom from the Circles of the World, and leave The World That Is in some fashion.

Tolkien liked to make a legendarium that did not include obvious religious ideas we know of today (or actually in his day), but still make it so that his faith (Catholicism) could conceivably fit in.

In doing so I think a lot of people's faiths could conceivably fit in. Well, maybe, it certainly comes off to me as being made by a Christian, but I've noticed people of all faiths enjoy it; whether Christian, Jew, Atheist etc..

[Snowdog]

The story is well documented in the Silmariullion, and the elves were ever drawn westward since the early days, and as they went west, some stopped along the way (Mirkwood, Lorien, Beleriand, and some sailed west to Valinor, known as the undying lands. A good read for information, though the Silmarillion is a bit choppy.

[Michael Martinez]

I'm not sure the why is well-documented in The Silmarillion. The reason -- the ultimate reason -- is given in the scene where the Valar curse the Noldor.

I think the Elves leave Middle-earth because they fear what is for them death. That is, they afraid of fading. It has never been clear to me whether the fading was a result of the curse of the Valar or simply a natural consequence which the Valar decided to emphasize for the rebellious Noldor.

Gildor tells Frodo that the Elves have their own concerns. I think their chief concern, at the time of the War of the Ring, is guilt. Guilt over what they have done to Middle-earth. Many of the Elves leave just before the War of the Ring. Why is that? Because they are afraid of Sauron? Or because they know great suffering will come? Tolkien doesn't really explain why the Elves leave. He just says they do and there is a sense of wistful regret from Sam, but Gildor conveys a certain reservation which implies (to me) that he doesn't want to abandon Middle-earth, and yet he doesn't want to involve himself any further if he can avoid doing so.

Gildor helped Frodo by asking Bombadil to keep an eye out for the Hobbits (and by sending a message to Rivendell). But he doesn't seem to have played an active role in events after that point. At most, he would have had to defend his home against incursions from Orcs or other servants of Sauron (assuming they spilled into Eriador when they invaded the Vale of Anduin).

So, one must ask why Gildor was hanging around. I think it's because he felt obliged to see things through to the end, somehow, without actually trying to influence events directly.

[Archbob the Elder]

They can't go to the undying lands by a mere ship after the end of the second age, After the last King set foot on Amen, the undying land were removed from the circles of the world.

[Michael Martinez]

Well, they used ships which were specially hallowed for the occasion, according to Tolkien in one of his letters. The Elven ships would sail west and find a Straight Road which continued on to Aman. Mortal ships would just go around the world.