if earendil had failed

afro-elf · 05-22-2002, 08:14 AM

if earendil had failed would the Valar have left morgoth to crush the elves, dwarves and men of middle earth?

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 05-22-2002, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by afro-elf
if earendil had failed would the Valar have left morgoth to crush the elves, dwarves and men of middle earth?

I think not. They may have not intervened when they did without Earendil's input, but the Valar had pity for the Exiles and never wholey abandoned them. I think they still would have done the same thing eventually, even without Earendil.

Tar-Elendil · 05-22-2002, 09:51 PM

the valar would have aided the peoples of middle-earth in time but im sure many woes great and small would have befell.

Elvellon · 06-24-2002, 08:03 PM

I believe Earendil was fated to succeed. It simply was de desire of Eru.

elendili · 06-25-2002, 05:31 AM

I think eventually the valar might have intervened due to the will of Ulmo but I think more of the Elves and Men would have died before that happened eventually the valar would have had to do something to save the Silmarils

BeardofPants · 06-25-2002, 06:14 AM

I dunno about Earendil being fated to suceed (sounds too much like a convenient plot device to me), but I do think that the intervention of the Valar was an eventuality that was inevitable... in due time. Just look at how much Ulmo interfered with the history of the elves. I think it was only a matter of time before he eventually conned some of the other valar to intervene...

Elvellon · 06-25-2002, 07:44 AM

Yet, in Tolkien’s work we see much of the same line of thought.
Weren’t elves bound by Fate? And consider how Bilbo found the ring; I remember that at one point Gandalf postulated that he may have been fated to find the ring. And that many things that happened to other “actors”, concerning the ring may have been fated to happen.

elendili · 06-25-2002, 08:22 AM

Tolkein says also about the fate of Gollum being tied up with the Ring but I don't believe in Fate especially coz there's no valar of fate

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 06-25-2002, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by elendili
Tolkein says also about the fate of Gollum being tied up with the Ring but I don't believe in Fate especially coz there's no valar of fate

No, but I think in Tolkien's world that fate came from Eru, and the Valar just helped keep it on course. When Tolkien speaks of the "doom" of certian people, like Beren, that is a fate. As far as there not being a Valar for fate, Mandos comes pretty close.

Jador · 06-25-2002, 11:24 AM

Dosn't fate tie in with the Music which was made at the begining of time?All of the Vaar and Eru were involved in this,but the Valar only really understood(and played)thier own part,and none of them knew the full mind of Illuvatar.

Tar-Elendil · 06-25-2002, 02:11 PM

anyways...
afro-elf said "what if." He was speaking hypothetically excluding the theories of earendil and fate. or i think so:P

Radagast The Brown · 06-25-2002, 03:07 PM

well I think that:

If Earendil had been failed another half man half elf person would go to Valinor and succeed. and if this man would fail too, the Valar probably would fight Morgoth anyway. But if they won't maybe they will let a half man half elf person to get to Valinor. And if it wouldn't happen.... well, that's another story.

Ñólendil · 06-25-2002, 08:12 PM

Eärendil's mixed blood and lineage is not what got him to Valinor. It was the Silmaril that his wife brought with her.

elendili · 06-26-2002, 06:23 AM

He also had the will to sail westwards and not give uo he wanted to stop Morgoroth so needed the valar's help, the Silmaril only helped him pass through the enchanted seas to Valinor

05-22-2002, 08:14 AM	#1
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	if earendil had failed if earendil had failed would the Valar have left morgoth to crush the elves, dwarves and men of middle earth? __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

05-22-2002, 09:51 PM	#3
Tar-Elendil Númenorean Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,050	the valar would have aided the peoples of middle-earth in time but im sure many woes great and small would have befell. __________________ Why can we not be sober..

06-24-2002, 08:03 PM	#4
Elvellon Elf Lord Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Lindon Posts: 637	I believe Earendil was fated to succeed. It simply was de desire of Eru. __________________ **************************************** "None are more hoplessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Reality is just an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein The Caffeine Mantra It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Brazil that the thoughts aquire speed, The hands aquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion... Elvellon Erelion

06-25-2002, 05:31 AM	#5
elendili Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: a galaxy far far away (aka Manchester) Posts: 320	I think eventually the valar might have intervened due to the will of Ulmo but I think more of the Elves and Men would have died before that happened eventually the valar would have had to do something to save the Silmarils __________________ Dovie'andi se tovya sagain "Courage my soul, now learn to wield The weight of thine immortal shield Place on thy head thy helmet bright Ballance thy sword against the fight See where an army strong as fair With silken banners spreads the air Now if thy bee'st that thing divine In this days combat let it shine: And shew that nature wants an art To conqeur one resolved heart" Andrew Marvell

06-25-2002, 06:14 AM	#6
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	I dunno about Earendil being fated to suceed (sounds too much like a convenient plot device to me), but I do think that the intervention of the Valar was an eventuality that was inevitable... in due time. Just look at how much Ulmo interfered with the history of the elves. I think it was only a matter of time before he eventually conned some of the other valar to intervene... __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

06-25-2002, 07:44 AM	#7
Elvellon Elf Lord Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Lindon Posts: 637	Yet, in Tolkien’s work we see much of the same line of thought. Weren’t elves bound by Fate? And consider how Bilbo found the ring; I remember that at one point Gandalf postulated that he may have been fated to find the ring. And that many things that happened to other “actors”, concerning the ring may have been fated to happen. __________________ **************************************** "None are more hoplessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Reality is just an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein The Caffeine Mantra It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Brazil that the thoughts aquire speed, The hands aquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion... Elvellon Erelion

06-25-2002, 08:22 AM	#8
elendili Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: a galaxy far far away (aka Manchester) Posts: 320	Tolkein says also about the fate of Gollum being tied up with the Ring but I don't believe in Fate especially coz there's no valar of fate __________________ Dovie'andi se tovya sagain "Courage my soul, now learn to wield The weight of thine immortal shield Place on thy head thy helmet bright Ballance thy sword against the fight See where an army strong as fair With silken banners spreads the air Now if thy bee'st that thing divine In this days combat let it shine: And shew that nature wants an art To conqeur one resolved heart" Andrew Marvell

06-25-2002, 11:24 AM	#10
Jador Elven Warrior Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Land of my Fathers. Posts: 184	Dosn't fate tie in with the Music which was made at the begining of time?All of the Vaar and Eru were involved in this,but the Valar only really understood(and played)thier own part,and none of them knew the full mind of Illuvatar. __________________ 'Some who have read the book.. have found it boring,absurd or contemptible;and I have no cause to complain,since I have similar opinions of thier works...'-JRRT 'If he wins back to the caves,he will pass your count again... Never did I see an axe so wielded'-Aragorn

06-25-2002, 02:11 PM	#11
Tar-Elendil Númenorean Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,050	anyways... afro-elf said "what if." He was speaking hypothetically excluding the theories of earendil and fate. or i think so:P __________________ Why can we not be sober..

06-25-2002, 03:07 PM	#12
Radagast The Brown Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Israel Posts: 6,975	well I think that: If Earendil had been failed another half man half elf person would go to Valinor and succeed. and if this man would fail too, the Valar probably would fight Morgoth anyway. But if they won't maybe they will let a half man half elf person to get to Valinor. And if it wouldn't happen.... well, that's another story. __________________ Lalala... poof! AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

06-25-2002, 08:12 PM	#13
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	Eärendil's mixed blood and lineage is not what got him to Valinor. It was the Silmaril that his wife brought with her. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

06-26-2002, 06:23 AM	#14
elendili Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: a galaxy far far away (aka Manchester) Posts: 320	He also had the will to sail westwards and not give uo he wanted to stop Morgoroth so needed the valar's help, the Silmaril only helped him pass through the enchanted seas to Valinor __________________ Dovie'andi se tovya sagain "Courage my soul, now learn to wield The weight of thine immortal shield Place on thy head thy helmet bright Ballance thy sword against the fight See where an army strong as fair With silken banners spreads the air Now if thy bee'st that thing divine In this days combat let it shine: And shew that nature wants an art To conqeur one resolved heart" Andrew Marvell

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Chapter 24: Of the Voyage of Earendil and the War of Wrath	Elvet	The Silmarillion Project	27	12-11-2018 07:08 AM
One question about Elwing and Earendil...	Genealogy_dude	Middle Earth	7	03-20-2005 07:51 AM
Scandinavian colonies that FAILED	Jonathan	General Messages	15	09-26-2003 11:44 AM
The Past - A Failed Future?	Rána Eressëa	General Messages	43	10-10-2002 10:31 PM
Middle Earth Trivia Thread	Wayfarer	Middle Earth	40	02-28-2002 09:14 AM