05-22-2002, 08:14 AM | #1 |
Hoplite Nomad
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if earendil had failed
if earendil had failed would the Valar have left morgoth to crush the elves, dwarves and men of middle earth?
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
05-22-2002, 11:21 AM | #2 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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Re: if earendil had failed
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05-22-2002, 09:51 PM | #3 |
Númenorean
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the valar would have aided the peoples of middle-earth in time but im sure many woes great and small would have befell.
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06-24-2002, 08:03 PM | #4 |
Elf Lord
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I believe Earendil was fated to succeed. It simply was de desire of Eru.
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**************************************** "None are more hoplessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Reality is just an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein The Caffeine Mantra It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Brazil that the thoughts aquire speed, The hands aquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion... Elvellon Erelion |
06-25-2002, 05:31 AM | #5 |
Elven Warrior
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I think eventually the valar might have intervened due to the will of Ulmo but I think more of the Elves and Men would have died before that happened eventually the valar would have had to do something to save the Silmarils
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Dovie'andi se tovya sagain "Courage my soul, now learn to wield The weight of thine immortal shield Place on thy head thy helmet bright Ballance thy sword against the fight See where an army strong as fair With silken banners spreads the air Now if thy bee'st that thing divine In this days combat let it shine: And shew that nature wants an art To conqeur one resolved heart" Andrew Marvell |
06-25-2002, 06:14 AM | #6 |
the Shrike
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I dunno about Earendil being fated to suceed (sounds too much like a convenient plot device to me), but I do think that the intervention of the Valar was an eventuality that was inevitable... in due time. Just look at how much Ulmo interfered with the history of the elves. I think it was only a matter of time before he eventually conned some of the other valar to intervene...
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06-25-2002, 07:44 AM | #7 |
Elf Lord
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Yet, in Tolkien’s work we see much of the same line of thought.
Weren’t elves bound by Fate? And consider how Bilbo found the ring; I remember that at one point Gandalf postulated that he may have been fated to find the ring. And that many things that happened to other “actors”, concerning the ring may have been fated to happen.
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**************************************** "None are more hoplessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Reality is just an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein The Caffeine Mantra It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Brazil that the thoughts aquire speed, The hands aquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion... Elvellon Erelion |
06-25-2002, 08:22 AM | #8 |
Elven Warrior
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Tolkein says also about the fate of Gollum being tied up with the Ring but I don't believe in Fate especially coz there's no valar of fate
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Dovie'andi se tovya sagain "Courage my soul, now learn to wield The weight of thine immortal shield Place on thy head thy helmet bright Ballance thy sword against the fight See where an army strong as fair With silken banners spreads the air Now if thy bee'st that thing divine In this days combat let it shine: And shew that nature wants an art To conqeur one resolved heart" Andrew Marvell |
06-25-2002, 10:47 AM | #9 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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06-25-2002, 11:24 AM | #10 |
Elven Warrior
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Dosn't fate tie in with the Music which was made at the begining of time?All of the Vaar and Eru were involved in this,but the Valar only really understood(and played)thier own part,and none of them knew the full mind of Illuvatar.
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'Some who have read the book.. have found it boring,absurd or contemptible;and I have no cause to complain,since I have similar opinions of thier works...'-JRRT 'If he wins back to the caves,he will pass your count again... Never did I see an axe so wielded'-Aragorn |
06-25-2002, 02:11 PM | #11 |
Númenorean
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anyways...
afro-elf said "what if." He was speaking hypothetically excluding the theories of earendil and fate. or i think so:P
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06-25-2002, 03:07 PM | #12 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2002
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well I think that:
If Earendil had been failed another half man half elf person would go to Valinor and succeed. and if this man would fail too, the Valar probably would fight Morgoth anyway. But if they won't maybe they will let a half man half elf person to get to Valinor. And if it wouldn't happen.... well, that's another story. |
06-25-2002, 08:12 PM | #13 |
Elf Lord
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Eärendil's mixed blood and lineage is not what got him to Valinor. It was the Silmaril that his wife brought with her.
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Falmon -- Dylan |
06-26-2002, 06:23 AM | #14 |
Elven Warrior
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He also had the will to sail westwards and not give uo he wanted to stop Morgoroth so needed the valar's help, the Silmaril only helped him pass through the enchanted seas to Valinor
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Dovie'andi se tovya sagain "Courage my soul, now learn to wield The weight of thine immortal shield Place on thy head thy helmet bright Ballance thy sword against the fight See where an army strong as fair With silken banners spreads the air Now if thy bee'st that thing divine In this days combat let it shine: And shew that nature wants an art To conqeur one resolved heart" Andrew Marvell |
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