If balrogs had wings how could they fall?

[Varda]

I hope this doesnt bring up a sore subject, since I know this is hotly debated, but..... my roommate just brought up a point that sounded interesting. She just finished reading LotR for the first time. She remarked that if a balrog did have wings it could not fall. Yet perhaps it could still fall with wings if the wings were not useful for flying but were kind of like the wings of a penguin, which are used just for balance (i guess)..... if anyone is annoyed by me bringing this up, though, feel free to close this thread

[Comic Book Guy]

Here we go again :P

In the Bridge of khazad-dum, when the Balrog spreads his Wings/Shadow Wings across the room, it gives the impression that the Wings/Shadows are of a great span, too great unfortunately for the Balrog if his Wings are physichal. If they are real wings he won't have the room to use them to fly out of the chasm.

So what happens when a Balrog is in a open space? We get the chance for an answer in Gandalfs account of fighting the balrog. Gandalf states that he fell off a mountain-side. He could use his wings to fly himself out of the situation, but he didn't, or coudn't.

Of course there are some answers to these, His wings could have been injured in the duel with Gandalf or he hadn't used his wings in a long time so he more or less forgot how to use them.

[Ñólendil]

*jabs his eyes out*

Yeah, you brought it up. My points:

1) Not everything with wings can fly, as you realize.

2) There is no indication that the Balrog was after anyone but Gandalf, he needn't have flown back up to the bridge, and anyway they were falling slow enough to fight on their way down. It may have actually used its wings

3) On the fall on the mountain peak: a shot bird falls off a tree. He was hit by lightning bolts for ten days, wings or not he's going down.

4) A Balrog probably doesn't need wings to fly anyway.

Ultimately what it comes down to is this:

They were darkness in the shape of wings. If you call that wings, or you don't, it's your business, but Tolkien did. First, when the 'wings' were first coming out, he said 'like wings', and then when they were fully stretched, he said 'and its wings were spread from wall to wall'. Michael Martinez once pointed out that the plastic wings of a little girl in a fairy costume on Halloween are still called wings. They aren't the appendages attached to birds, but they are still wings.

One poster called Morthoron on another forum once actually made everyone reach a consensus about this. It was decided that Balrogs used Moria Stealth Jet Packs, I alone held to the view that they were Flaming Bullfrogs.

[Erewe]

"Hey, look, there he goes! Oh, it's just a crumby Balrog"

--Crow T. Robot



Inoldonil, I think you've hit the nail on the head. One must remember that a shadow went before the Balrog that changed size, and if I'm not mistaken, shape. It may have made itself appear to have wings, perhaps to be more threatening(?) while in fact they are only made of shadow.

--Erewë

[fatclown]

how come when you throw a rock at a bat it will fall?
It has wings! Its a simple concept. I belive they had wings much like dragons. But when some balrogs are cast down, they simply cant recover in time to gain flight from their devastating fall. Also, i belive the wings had to support a rather un-aerodynamic form, it would be very hard to recover. Evidence may also be said to the theory that balrogs used wings to balance themselves in perilous situations ( gothmog vs glorfindel on the mountain?)

[Ñólendil]

But the Balrog we see in Mória (the only Balrog seen extensively in narrative from the new legendarium) did not always have wings. How could it have wings like a Dragon if it didn't always have wings? How physical really are wings that are not always there? They arose from the 'shadow' or perhaps more properly 'eminating darkness' around the Balrog.

As for Glorfindel and the Balrog, that was a wingless, man-sized Balrog that quite probably rode to Gondolin in cavalry. The old Legendarium, the old Balrogs. Tolkien later commented that the battle may need revision. I wished we could have read a lengthy account of a Balrog-battle in the new conception, besides Gandalf's, of course.

[fatclown]

Responding to imhadil
I suppose the wing subject is depatable from kazahd dum. But
' As for Glorfindel And the balrog, that was a wingless, man sized balrog that quite possibly rode to gondolin in calvary.'

Uhh well I remember reading that it was Gothmog lord of the balrogs. Not exactly man sized, and i got several impressions that it was winged.

[Ñólendil]

The Elf who slew Gothmog was Ecthelion, Lord of the Fountains.

What I meant is that the Balrog/Glorfindel battle you read about in the published Silmarillion is not the Balrog/Glorfindel battle JRR Tolkien wrote. Read any of the History of Middle-earth? In the earliest versions of the Battle between Gandalf and The Balrog, the Balrog was indeed man-sized, and definitely wingless. That was when Strider was Trotter, the hobbit-ranger. In that version the Bridge broke when a Cave-troll leaped onto the bridge. These are the Balrogs of the old mythology: in the Book of Lost Tales.

There were hosts and hosts of them, they were an entire Race. Before the Lord of the Rings was published, they were actually bred by Morgoth. They rode into battle. They were man-sized. After the Lord of the Rings was published, it was seen by Tolkien that Balrogs were far more powerful and terrible than that. He began to update a few notes in the Annals of Aman and the Annals of Beleriand (published in Volumes X and XII of History of Middle-earth). He decided they were Maiar in the service of Morgoth, but for long there were still many.

Finally realizing, apparently, that the Elves would have no chance against hosts of the Balrogs of the kind seen in Mória, he decided there were only 'say three or at most seven' Balrogs altogether, but this never touched narrative.

Nor were the Balrog battles from the First Age ever updated. A few notes in narrative reflect the new idea, such as the Balrogs passing over Hithlum with winged speed to the aid of Melkor. But it was pretty much the old Balrogs.

So when Christopher Tolkien has to put together a Silmarillion, he's got to use the old texts. Problem is, those aren't in accord with the new conception of Balrogs. So he makes their description vague, he cuts out all that he feels he should that contradicts the Lord of the Rings, and leaves the rest. So naturally you may get the impression Gothmog was rather large (he however fought Ecthelion, not Glorfindel), and had wings and all that.

In light of Tolkien's new idea about Balrogs, he must certainly have looked like the Balrog of Mória, but if this sort of Balrog had touched the old narratives, we would read different accounts of the battles in the Silmarillion. It is thus difficult to make theories about the new Balrogs based on narratives which contained the older ones.

[Selwythe]

There is no indication that the Balrog was after anyone but Gandalf, he needn't have flown back up to the bridge, and anyway they were falling slow enough to fight on their way down. It may have actually used its wings

I believe that the Balrog couldn't go up. When Ecthelion jumped on Gothmog and forced them both into the well, Gothmog didn't try to get out even though it was obvious that he knew it was his doom and that his real target was Tuor.

Maybe Morgoth or Sauron later clipped them wings. Action parts each sold separately?

[Ñólendil]

I believe that the Balrog couldn't go up. When Ecthelion jumped on Gothmog and forced them both into the well, Gothmog didn't try to get out even though it was obvious that he knew it was his doom and that his real target was Tuor.

Again, see above post Ecthelion battles Gothmog (I believe) only in the old Tale of Tuor, published I think in Shaping of Middle-earth, Vol. V of the History of Middle-earth. Those were the old Balrogs (definitely without wings or anything resembling wings), JRR Tolkien never revised the battle or indeed that story. Well, he attempted to, he started a new Tale of Tuor, Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin, but for mysterious reasons he wrote nothing beyond Tuor's coming to the Vale of Tumladen. Ofcourse we know that because it was published in Unfinished Tales under the name of Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin.

[Michael Martinez]

You cannot use the account provided in The Silmarillion as a basis for comparison with The Lord of the Rings. As Inoldonil points out, the early description of Moria's Balrog was quite different from that in the published text. Tolkien changed the nature and number of his Balrogs while writing The Lord of the Rings. The Balrog of Moria has wings. Whether those wings could be used for flight, or were needed for flight, is not indicated by the text. But the Balrog had no need to try and "save" itself by flying out of the chasm (assuming it could or should have been able to do so). The fall was not sufficient to kill the Balrog. In fact, Gandalf says they fell for a long time, and that he hacked at the Balrog while they fell together. It sounds to me very much like the Balrog slowed their descent.

People assume that the Balrog was under some sort of obligation to fly away from Gandalf if it could do so. There is, however, no evidence to indicate that the Balrog was in perfect health. Gandalf had, by that time, been burned badly (or so he tells Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas) by the Balrog's flame (in their descent through the chasm) and Gandalf had whacked at the Balrog with his Elvish sword for quite a bit.

People also assume that, if the Balrog were capable of flight and wished to fly away, that Gandalf would have been powerless to prevent such an escape. As Inoldonil points out, the battle lasted for many days and Gandalf (and quite possibly the Balrog) used lightning in that battle. Unless it could have dodged lightning bolts while fleeing through the sky, it's not plausible to argue that the Balrog could or should have escaped that way.

When Gandalf finally threw the Balrog off the mountainside, it was either dead or dying. Smaug was not dead when he fell from the sky, but he was incapable of saving himself by flying away after Bard's arrow struck him in the breast.

Any creature, regardless of its motive abilities, will lose its power to do much if it is mortally wounded. So there is no point in arguing that a dead or dying Balrog should have flown away if it could have flown. He was defeated at that point, and even if he still lived while falling toward the mountainside where he went KABLOOIE!, he was incapable of preventing Gandalf from doing that to him, much less of saving himself.

By definition, vanquishing one's opponent in a life-or-death struggle deprives that opponent of life. At the moment victory becomes assured, the soon-to-be-vanquished opponent cannot save itself by flying or running or swimming or doing anything else.

[emplynx]

Read my quote. It may be refering to the shadow wings mentioned before but I think not.
|
|
|
|
V
EDIT: My quote is changed.

[Michael Martinez]

The Balrog of Moria only had one set of wings.

[Wayfarer]

My opinion has always been that the balrog would have used his wings in battle, but due to the nescessity of hand to hand combat, would not have been able to simply flown around in circles over it's enemies heads.

I.E. If glorfindel's balrog was of the 'new' kind, I would imagine that it came upon them suddenly from above. But once he was actually engaged by glorfindel, they would have become less of an asset.

After all... you're fighting with conventional hand to hand weapons (sword or mace, etc) and once you're on the ground, they don't add much to your mobility. They're just big, flapping, appendages that are easilky damaged.

As for the battle on the peak, I can imagine the balrog swooping and reeling, but again, when you're fighting with your claws, and your enemy is shooting of lightning, it wouldn't really be a smart move.

[afro-elf]

In the SIL it states that Balrogs were demons p 26

IF IF this statement applies to the OLD balrogs

They would still be powerful foes.


If the statement does not apply to the old ones OH WELL.



BUT I think is is more dramatic if it does and if the NEW balrogs are substituted it makes the struggles of those who fought them, Fingon, Feanor,Ecthalion, Glorfindel and Chun Li (opps street fighter Balrog mix up)

VERY dramatic.


Even if there were hordes of them they seemed powerful anyway. Why comment one such heroes being killed by Balrog in such ways if it was not is SOMEWAY impressive?

It seems that even the older lesser Balrogs weren't no joke. I would say that they were more powerful than orcs or trolls.

The newer versions being VERY POWERFUL.

[Michael Martinez]

The Silmarillion, the published book, is a composite work which is no more than an approximation -- based on Christopher Tolkien's knowledge, resources, and understanding of his father's work in the early-to-mid 1970s -- of what J.R.R. Tolkien might have contrived, had he lived long enough to actually complete the work. In fact, it's really not even close to an accurate approximation, given that in the last couple of years of his life, JRRT began abandoning the old myths in favor of a more scientifically accurate pseudo-history.

There is, in my opinion, no real value to comparing the Balrogs of The Silmarillion to the Balrog of The Lord of the Rings. The Balrogs of The Silmarillion are vaguely defined and depicted, and they are mentioned in a smattering of passages drawn from original works composed across a period of decades, and which were intended to be part of wholly separate myth cycles.

Tolkien reused creature ideas, character ideas, and story ideas, but he created several mythologies. The similarities and reuses between the various mythologies have led to a great deal of confusion and debate which can never really be resolved to any general satisfaction.

[afro-elf]

One question ,were they maiar in the old version?

[Ñólendil]

They were called demons, but they were not the demons you're thinking of, as they were made by Melko. There weren't really Maiar (I don't think, I'm not very familar with the stories) in the mythology of the Book of Lost Tales, there were the Valar (the Gods) and the Children of the Gods. Eönwë, for instance, was Fionwe son of Manwe.

[afro-elf]

I guess what I'm striving to find out is that it seems that the old balrogs were not as powerful as the new ones. But, I still feel that they were still powerful, more so than orcs or even trolls.

Why make the those fought them seem like great heroes for fighting them?

[Ñólendil]

The 'old' ones were certainly less powerful than the 'new' ones. If you want to see about the old ones, you should get The Book of Lost Tales Part I and II and The Lays of Beleriand. I think you're right, they were still supposed to be more terrible than Trolls or Orcs.