Is there a moral?

Blackboar · 12-24-2002, 07:23 AM

My brother asked me to post a thread on this.

Do think that their is a moral to LotR?

http://www.aslan.demon.co.uk/allegory.htm

Quote:

When Tolkien vociferously denies that LOTR is an "allegory", he seems to be denying that it is a fable: that is, he is reacting against stupid people who were inclined to say, "The ring is the atomic bomb. The Shire is England. Minas Tirith is the United States. Mordor is Nazi Germany. Isengard is Fascist Italy. Wormtongue is Neville Chamberlain. Eowyn is Vera Lynn." At any rate, in denying that it is "allegory" he points out all the ways in which it does NOT resemble The Second World War

Well...What do you think?

Elf.Freak · 12-24-2002, 08:29 AM

don't trust people with one firey eye

Blackboar · 12-24-2002, 09:54 AM

Come on!! I need more opinions!!!

Falagar · 12-24-2002, 10:08 AM

Yes, there is a moral: Do not create magical Rings, nor thrust Sauron.

Blackboar · 12-24-2002, 10:13 AM

*lol*

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 12-24-2002, 11:11 AM

Tolkien disliked allegory and although we may see silmilarities between the real world and Tolkien's world, it was not Tolkien's intention but was probably a coinncodent, but unavoidable for a writer.

What is the moral to the story? I think it's saying that good can triumph over evil even with insurmountable odds, if people come together and fight with all that they've got for what they believe in, and a coman cause.

Blackboar · 12-24-2002, 11:45 AM

Yes! Thats a thought Sister GH thanks!!

Ñólendil · 12-24-2002, 04:51 PM

My answer is "no". I don't have Book I with me, so someone else can verify, but in his Foreward to the Second Edition, J. R. R. Tolkien says "as for any inner "meaning" or "message", there is in the intention of the author, none.". You can get anything you like out of the Lord of the Rings, but Tolkien wasn't delivering a moral, -- he wasn't trying to teach us anything about right or eithical behavior, I do not think. He was just writing a great story, a heroic romance, about death, and the desire for deathlessness.

Ñólendil · 12-24-2002, 05:55 PM

I have found my Book I, here are two quotes I think are important to this topic:

Quote:

The Lord of the Rings has been read by many people since it finally appeared in print; and I should like to say something here with reference to the many opinions or guesses that I have received or have read concerning the motives and meaning of the tale. The prime motive was the desire of a tale-teller to try his hand at a really long story that would hold the attention of readers, amuse them, delight them, and at times maybe excite them or deeply move them.

Quote:

As for any inner meaning or 'message', it has in the intention of the author none.

Sminty_Smeagol · 12-24-2002, 09:44 PM

As for the allegory bit... true, tolkien despised allegory and pouring his own beliefs and forcing the allegory upon other people... which is what makes his stories great is because they are APPLICABLE!!! So you can think of the Ring as sin, or you can think of Sauron as Hitler, or whatever that all is. I think thats what makes it good... it doesn't limit your translation. So maybe in someone's mind they can view it as a religious book... but then it is NOT a religious book and so others can translate it however they like. So I do not think it is bad to say, in your mind, one thing represents another... as long as you don't go forcing that representation on others. You can relate it to many different things. I bet when reading about gollum falling in to the Cracks of Mount Doom many of us pictured a severely disliked person in our lives, flailing, screaming, falling towards the eternal depths of a firey crevasse...

or maybe thats just me

markedel · 12-25-2002, 05:42 PM

The best works of literature can be looked at in many different ways-pick the moral you prefer, then explain why you like it.

cassiopeia · 12-26-2002, 04:55 AM

I don't think there is allegory in the LOTR, but I thought the most important morals was that even littlest of people can make a difference to the world. The thing is, everyone is going to see the book a little bit differently, you just have to be careful to realise these are your views and not nessasarily the authors.

diannah · 12-26-2002, 08:45 AM

Yeah, I got one: don't piss off a dwarf!

Blackboar · 12-26-2002, 09:08 AM

lol

I got another one: Don't say BOO to a Balrog!!

Not that this ever happend on ME!

Elf.Freak · 12-27-2002, 06:29 AM

I've got more! *everyone groans*

Never pick up rings you see on the ground.
Don't always do what the ringbearer says (ie. Go to Moria so Gandalf can fall off a bridge)
And (in the case of the movie) NEVER TRUST THAT PETER JACKSON WILL DO AN EXACT MOVIE OF LOTR

(i meant exact as in no bits left out, no people getting killed that shouldn't, and anything else that i forgot).

Thank you *bows and falls over*

Gwaimir Windgem · 12-27-2002, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elf.Freak
Don't always do what the ringbearer says (ie. Go to Moria so Gandalf can fall off a bridge)
Thank you *bows and falls over* [/B]

Actually, I think that was the movie. I think that the company was arguing over the matter, Frodo said:

Quote:

'I do not wish to go,' he said; 'but neither do I wish to refuse the advice of Gandalf.'

Lefty Scaevola · 12-27-2002, 03:52 PM

Life's a b**ch, and then you become a diembodied wraith tortured for millenia by an imensely powerful malevolant spirit.

samwise of the shire · 12-27-2002, 05:50 PM

Just say no!

Seriously though there are so many different "themes" in LOTR that it's freaky. But I think that the main underlying theme is the plan God gave this earth from the beginning of time...Evil with fail and Good shall prevail. Tolkien and other fantasy authors just write on top of that foundation and create truely exellent fiction...whether they believe in God or not.
Cheers,
Sam

***Rían*** · 12-31-2002, 03:08 PM

When I get back home (we're visiting family in another state) I can post some quotes from "Letters of JRR Tolkien" about this subject - he has some interesting things to say on this topic.

Laurelyn · 12-31-2002, 07:40 PM

Orcs are generally untrustworthy. So are people entitled 'Dark Lord.'

12-24-2002, 08:29 AM	#2
Elf.Freak Orli's lil fan Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Sugar World/Orlando Bloom Cloud Posts: 464	don't trust people with one firey eye __________________ >>--elven arrow--> ~ Give a man a fish and he'll feed for a day, give me a fish and you'll only get it back! ~ I've gotta new avatar! looks kinda like me...anime style! ~ LOST: Orlando Bloom. If found, please send him straight to Elf.Freak

12-24-2002, 10:08 AM	#4
Falagar Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 2,870	Yes, there is a moral: Do not create magical Rings, nor thrust Sauron. __________________ Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle.

12-24-2002, 11:11 AM	#6
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	Tolkien disliked allegory and although we may see silmilarities between the real world and Tolkien's world, it was not Tolkien's intention but was probably a coinncodent, but unavoidable for a writer. What is the moral to the story? I think it's saying that good can triumph over evil even with insurmountable odds, if people come together and fight with all that they've got for what they believe in, and a coman cause. __________________ "Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

12-24-2002, 04:51 PM	#8
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	My answer is "no". I don't have Book I with me, so someone else can verify, but in his Foreward to the Second Edition, J. R. R. Tolkien says "as for any inner "meaning" or "message", there is in the intention of the author, none.". You can get anything you like out of the Lord of the Rings, but Tolkien wasn't delivering a moral, -- he wasn't trying to teach us anything about right or eithical behavior, I do not think. He was just writing a great story, a heroic romance, about death, and the desire for deathlessness. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

12-25-2002, 05:42 PM	#11
markedel 'Sober' Mullet Frosh Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Queen's Posts: 1,245	The best works of literature can be looked at in many different ways-pick the moral you prefer, then explain why you like it. __________________ "Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom"

12-24-2002, 09:54 AM	#3
Blackboar Legolas's beloved sister and Queen of the Wood Elves of Mirkwood Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Under the hill at Bag-end, Hobbiton the Shire Or Rivendell,I can't remember!!!!!!!!!! Posts: 1,086	Come on!! I need more opinions!!!

12-24-2002, 10:13 AM	#5
Blackboar Legolas's beloved sister and Queen of the Wood Elves of Mirkwood Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Under the hill at Bag-end, Hobbiton the Shire Or Rivendell,I can't remember!!!!!!!!!! Posts: 1,086	lol

12-24-2002, 11:45 AM	#7
Blackboar Legolas's beloved sister and Queen of the Wood Elves of Mirkwood Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Under the hill at Bag-end, Hobbiton the Shire Or Rivendell,I can't remember!!!!!!!!!! Posts: 1,086	Yes! Thats a thought Sister GH thanks!!

12-24-2002, 09:44 PM	#10
Sminty_Smeagol Manic Cardboard-Box Dweller Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In a house Posts: 1,071	As for the allegory bit... true, tolkien despised allegory and pouring his own beliefs and forcing the allegory upon other people... which is what makes his stories great is because they are APPLICABLE!!! So you can think of the Ring as sin, or you can think of Sauron as Hitler, or whatever that all is. I think thats what makes it good... it doesn't limit your translation. So maybe in someone's mind they can view it as a religious book... but then it is NOT a religious book and so others can translate it however they like. So I do not think it is bad to say, in your mind, one thing represents another... as long as you don't go forcing that representation on others. You can relate it to many different things. I bet when reading about gollum falling in to the Cracks of Mount Doom many of us pictured a severely disliked person in our lives, flailing, screaming, falling towards the eternal depths of a firey crevasse... or maybe thats just me

12-26-2002, 04:55 AM	#12
cassiopeia Viggoholic Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 1,749	I don't think there is allegory in the LOTR, but I thought the most important morals was that even littlest of people can make a difference to the world. The thing is, everyone is going to see the book a little bit differently, you just have to be careful to realise these are your views and not nessasarily the authors. __________________ Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try.

12-26-2002, 08:45 AM	#13
diannah Hobbit Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: bethel, ME Posts: 43	Yeah, I got one: don't piss off a dwarf!

12-26-2002, 09:08 AM	#14
Blackboar Legolas's beloved sister and Queen of the Wood Elves of Mirkwood Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Under the hill at Bag-end, Hobbiton the Shire Or Rivendell,I can't remember!!!!!!!!!! Posts: 1,086	lol I got another one: Don't say BOO to a Balrog!! Not that this ever happend on ME!

12-27-2002, 06:29 AM	#15
Elf.Freak Orli's lil fan Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Sugar World/Orlando Bloom Cloud Posts: 464	I've got more! everyone groans Never pick up rings you see on the ground. Don't always do what the ringbearer says (ie. Go to Moria so Gandalf can fall off a bridge) And (in the case of the movie) NEVER TRUST THAT PETER JACKSON WILL DO AN EXACT MOVIE OF LOTR (i meant exact as in no bits left out, no people getting killed that shouldn't, and anything else that i forgot). Thank you bows and falls over __________________ >>--elven arrow--> ~ Give a man a fish and he'll feed for a day, give me a fish and you'll only get it back! ~ I've gotta new avatar! looks kinda like me...anime style! ~ LOST: Orlando Bloom. If found, please send him straight to Elf.Freak

12-27-2002, 03:52 PM	#17
Lefty Scaevola AngAdan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boerne, Texas Posts: 856	Life's a b**ch, and then you become a diembodied wraith tortured for millenia by an imensely powerful malevolant spirit.

12-27-2002, 05:50 PM	#18
samwise of the shire Radically Tolkienited Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: If home is where the heart is, and my heart is in heaven...that should answer your question. <+>< Posts: 967	Just say no! Seriously though there are so many different "themes" in LOTR that it's freaky. But I think that the main underlying theme is the plan God gave this earth from the beginning of time...Evil with fail and Good shall prevail. Tolkien and other fantasy authors just write on top of that foundation and create truely exellent fiction...whether they believe in God or not. Cheers, Sam __________________ Jesus is my all in all <><+<><+<><+<><+<><+<><+ People who are so concerned with escapism do have a name...we call them jailers. ~J.R.R Tolkien Radically Saved, Totally Tolkienited GOD... BLESS... AMERICA...

12-31-2002, 03:08 PM	#19
*Rían* Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!) Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Not where I want to be ... Posts: 15,254	When I get back home (we're visiting family in another state) I can post some quotes from "Letters of JRR Tolkien" about this subject - he has some interesting things to say on this topic. __________________ . I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva!

12-31-2002, 07:40 PM	#20
Laurelyn Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Valinor, right next to Telperion . . . what did you expect, Michigan? Posts: 1,315	Orcs are generally untrustworthy. So are people entitled 'Dark Lord.' __________________ The Third Age of Entmoot has begun. Angel of music, guide and guardian! Grant to me your glory! The country I eat and spend the day in is by no means the country I sleep and dream in. Define patriotism. Hold the boat, you spastic monkey! ~ Elenka

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