What about Gil-Galad????????

[ArwenEvenstar]

On the Elf reincarnation thing (that's how I refer to the Elves feas coming back....) What about Gil-Galad? Wasn't he just as good as Glorfindel? or did he choose to stay there... Or did Manwe or Mandos (can't remember which at the moment) find out about a scandel or something.... How come he didn't come back? Or is that just how Tolkien decided it...... Because he came back to ME that would totally be a BIG help to the Free Peoples of Middle Earth!!!

I'm open to everyones theorys

[Sister Golden Hair]

I can't be positive, but I would think that Gil-galad was probably re- embodied and returned to Valinor as did most of the Elves that died or were slain. Glorfindel is the only one that ever returned to Middle-earth. I do not know if it was a choice not to return, or if it was forbidden by the Valar once they were released from Mandos. But, Tolkien says in the Silmarillion I believe, that none of the ones that lived in Middle-earth, with the acception of Glorfindel, chose to return to the outer lands because of their prior lifes griefs. This statement was made in reference to the Great Battle at the end of the First Age. The Hosts of the Valar came to overthrow Morgoth. That was mostly Vanyarin Elves that had never been to Middle-earth, but none of the re-embodied Elves wished to return.

[Ñólendil]

Was this topic perhaps meant to be a response to another post in a thread?

Glorfindel was not the only Elf to return to Middle-earth from Aman. All Elves could return, if their home had been there (and if they 'passed the judgement' as one might say). I suppose it's quite possible that Glorfindel was the only Elf to return during the Second Age, but I don't think this is certainly said. Probably in the Third Age none did.

Many of the Elves who had died before the Great Journey did not desire to return, not even to the Living, and remained in Mandos. (I think this sort of info. can be found in Laws and Customs Among the Eldar, published in Morgoth's Ring). In fact it appears that all Elves before the Journey did this. In the long Ages after the Journey and before the Ñoldorin Rebellion, there were probably Eldar returning to Middle-earth after 'death'.

Other wise I'd say you're right on the money Sister.

It is important to remember I think that Gil-Galad died after Glorfindel returned. Glorfindel returned to Middle-earth in II 1600 (the Year of Dread when the One Ring was forged), while Gil-galad died in the War of the Last Alliance, which marked the ending of that Age. This was after the Change of the World, when it was highly unlikely (as said above) that any Elves would return to Middle-earth from Aman. Gil-galad thus was perhaps not given a choice to return.

[Agburanar]

If I were Gil-Galad I'd stay away from Middle Earth, too many bad vibes. He probably stayed in Mandos.

[Thorondor]

I don't have the refernece handy, but I believe that the "reincarnation" of Glorfindal was somewhat "accidental". At the time the LOTR was written, Tolkien had no idea that his writings on the earlier ages would ever be published. When he needed an appropriate name for a great elf lord, he used one from his earlier writing. When the Sil was being prepared for publication he came up against the problem of two Glorfindals, and decided to make them one person, reincarnated to Middle Earth.

The implication is that had he known that the Sil would be published, he would have used a different name in the LOTR. Reincarnation to Middle Earth seemes to be something he wanted to discourage.

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Inoldonil
I suppose it's quite possible that Glorfindel was the only Elf to return during the Second Age, but I don't think this is certainly said. Probably in the Third Age none did.

A slight twist to the subject (and likely a very tired and flogged horse ):

Could there (as I think is hinted in LotR) have been any connection between Luthien and Arwen?

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Thorondor
At the time the LOTR was written, Tolkien had no idea that his writings on the earlier ages would ever be published. When he needed an appropriate name for a great elf lord, he used one from his earlier writing. When the Sil was being prepared for publication he came up against the problem of two Glorfindals, and decided to make them one person, reincarnated to Middle Earth.

That is of course consistent with many known facts about the process in which Tolkien produced his myths.

Another way to interpret the process would be to say Tolkien simply discovered new facts or laws of nature in the universe he had created...

[Wayfarer]

I actually prefer to look at it that way, as otherwise we have no possibility of 'filling in the gaps'.1

[Agburanar]

Yeah, it's good to imagine the creator didn't know everything about Middle Earth, it gives us room to add our ideas.

[Lord_Ov_The_Thunder]

Originally posted by Kirinki54


A slight twist to the subject (and likely a very tired and flogged horse ):

Could there (as I think is hinted in LotR) have been any connection between Luthien and Arwen?

Actually there is a connection between them... Luthien was Arwen's great grandmother... Arwen is daughter of Elrond, son of Earendil and Elwing, Elwing was daughter of Dior who is the son of Beren and Luthien!

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Lord_Ov_The_Thunder


Actually there is a connection between them... Luthien was Arwen's great grandmother... Arwen is daughter of Elrond, son of Earendil and Elwing, Elwing was daughter of Dior who is the son of Beren and Luthien!

Certainly... But is there not also talk of Luthien being reborn as Arwen? Perhaps I just remember incorrectly...

[Lightice]

Well, Arwen can't be reborn Luthien.
Luthien chose the Fate of the Man and became mortal, just as Arwen did later, and mortals don't get rebirth.
Plus that Arwen was born in Middle Earth. She didn't come there from Valinor.

[Wayfarer]

Elves don't get born, they get new full grown bodies, like the valar do when they become incarnate (only much less, according to their stature)

[Wayfarer]

correction: elves don't get REborn.

[Lightice]

Well, that is what I meant with rebirth.
I'm sorry, if you understood my phrase incorrectly, but english ain't my native tongue.

[Wayfarer]

Originally posted by Lightice
I'm sorry, if you understood my phrase incorrectly, but english ain't my native tongue.

Really? You speak it like a native!

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Lightice
Well, Arwen can't be reborn Luthien.
Luthien chose the Fate of the Man and became mortal, just as Arwen did later, and mortals don't get rebirth.
Plus that Arwen was born in Middle Earth. She didn't come there from Valinor.

Well, Tolkien might have created a special rule for Luthien... And forgot to ever essay on it. Or did he? Aragorn was certainly fooled at first anyway!

True, Arwen was born in Middle Earth. So was Luthien.

[Ñólendil]

As you guessed, Tolkien covered the subject *flips through Letters*

Arwen is not a 're-incarnation' of Lúthien (that in the view of this mythical history would be impossible, since Lúthien has died like a mortal and left the world of time) but a descendant very like her in looks, character, and fate.

Letter #153, a draft to Peter Hastings.

[Agburanar]

Alike but not the same. I agree.

[noldorlord]

I thought that though there is a Glorfindel in Lotr and the silmarrillion it does not mean they are the same elf. Glorfindel in the Silmarrilion died in the retreat from Gondolin. Then in the lotr there is another Glorfindel. Having the same name does not make them the same.