The two towers

ArwenEvenstar · 12-22-2001, 01:23 PM

What does the title mean? Something like Minas Morgul and Minas Tirith...?

Legolas · 12-22-2001, 01:43 PM

Minas Morgul and Orthank.
The book's plot is set in the area between these towers.

Comic Book Guy · 12-22-2001, 08:13 PM

The Title 'The Two Towers' refers to Minas Tirith and Minas Ithil (Morgul).

Legolas · 12-23-2001, 01:16 PM

Tirith and Morgul? Strange... In my version, it is said that "the book represents events which happened in the area between Minas Morgul and Orthank".

galadriel · 12-23-2001, 01:56 PM

I'm pretty sure it's Minas Morgul and Orthanc.

emplynx · 12-23-2001, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by galadriel
I'm pretty sure it's Minas Morgul and Orthanc.

*ditto*

KGamgee · 12-23-2001, 03:43 PM

Yep, Minas Morgul and Orthanc.

Lightice · 12-23-2001, 03:53 PM

Really? I always taught, that it was referring to Narchost and Carchost, the Fang Towers at Morannon...

Comic Book Guy · 12-23-2001, 05:41 PM

The Title does refer to Minas Morgul and Minas Tirith, firstly the name 'The Two Towers' fits in to the fact that the two towers are actually twins, some of the events take place near these towers and the orignal designs for the book (designed by Tolkien) clearly show Tirith and Morgul, It shows a white tower with a tree above it and to its right it shows a black tower.

Ã‘Ã³lendil · 12-23-2001, 05:59 PM

I think Tolkien changed his mind a bit about which towers the Two Towers applied to. But I know that in the final version of the jacket design, the two Towers depicted are indeed Minas Morgul and Orthanc. Minas Morgul has the Nine Rings illustrated on it, with a moon in a Ring above it and a 'Winged Nazgul', and Orthanc has a White Hand design above it. Minas Tirith would be little odd, don't you think? It doesn't appear in Volume II, Treason of Isengard ends with Pippin and Gandalf on their way to it.

CardenIAntauraNauco · 12-23-2001, 11:19 PM

I think it is Morgul and Tirith
In the Quenyan texts the title is
"I Atta Mindu " I = the, Atta = two, Mindu - this is towers in dual form. Meaning they have to be associated with one another. Their are two types of plural one for two unassociated objects and one fore related,the aforementioned "dual form".

So I hold with the The Minas Morgul and Minas Tirith belief.

CardenIAntauraNauco · 12-23-2001, 11:25 PM

but i think your right that their was some indesciveness on the part of Tolkien- I think he originally meant Minas Tirith and Minas Morgul but considering changed the meaning.

Ã‘Ã³lendil · 12-24-2001, 02:24 AM

Orthanc and Morgul are connected by the PalantÃ*ri, aren't they? I mean, there PalantÃ*r of Ithil at the time of the LotR resided in Barad-dÃ»r, but it used to be in Ithil. And there were the NazgÃ»l going back and forth between the two during the book. Look at this way: the only towers seen in Book III include the tower in the Burg of the Hornburg, and Orthanc. The only towers seen in Book IV are the Towers of the Teeth on the Black Gate, Minas Morgul, and (briefly) the Tower of Cirith Ungol. Minas Tirith isn't seen at all.

We can all agree I'm sure that the tower in the Hornburg is out of the question, so we should have these options: Orthanc and Ungol, Orthanc and Morgul or the Towers of the Teeth. But 'Two Towers' was invented to link the two (really unrelated plot-wise) Books together. So I think we can rule out the towers on the Morannon, which only are seen in Book IV. So we have Orthanc and Ungol or Orthanc and Morgul. Orthanc and Morgul makes more sense to me.

Minas Tirith isn't in the Two Towers!

CardenIAntauraNauco · 12-24-2001, 11:40 AM

that sounds right; it would make sense for the comparison to be that of the palantir

KGamgee · 12-27-2001, 09:52 PM

Look at the VERY VERY VERY end of book one, and it will mention Minas Morgul and Orthanc.

Michael Martinez · 12-31-2001, 04:02 AM

Tolkien proposed the title in Letter 140 (written on August 17, 1953):

"The Fellowship of the Ring will do, I think; it fits well with the fact that the last chapter of the Volume is The Breaking of the Fellowship. The Two Towers gets as near as possible to finding a title over the widely divergent Books 3 and 4; and can be left ambiguous -- it might refer to Isengard and Barad-dur, or to Minas Tirith and B; or Isengard and Cirith Ungol. On reflection I prefer fo Vol. III The War of the Ring, since it gets in the Ring again; and also is more non-committal, and gives less hint about the turn of the story: the chapter titles have been chosen also to give away as little as possible in advance. But I am not set in my choice."

Gimly · 12-31-2001, 07:51 AM

I'm just thinking, if the title is supposed to link between the books then It's surely not Orthanc, since it's not in the fourth book.

ArwenEvenstar · 12-31-2001, 09:18 AM

well thanks for the help even if we are still undecided

FrodoFriend · 01-02-2002, 03:11 AM

hey, if tolkien didn't know himself, how is anyone else supposed to?

TinuvielChild · 03-17-2002, 11:49 PM

yeah, what KGamgee said: at the EXTREME END of my copy of FotR, it says:

Quote:

Here ends the first part of the history of the War of the Ring.
The second part is called The Two Towers, since the events recounted in it are dominated by Orthanc, the citadel of Saruman, and the fortress of Minas Morgul that guards the secret entrance to Mordor

guess that about settles it, huh?

12-22-2001, 01:23 PM	#1
ArwenEvenstar Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: and why do YOU want to know? Posts: 685	The two towers What does the title mean? Something like Minas Morgul and Minas Tirith...? __________________ The only thing active about me is my imagination!

12-22-2001, 01:43 PM	#2
Legolas Elven Warrior Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Vilnius, Lithuania Posts: 171	Minas Morgul and Orthank. The book's plot is set in the area between these towers. __________________ Legolas - a stupid stubborn elf

12-23-2001, 01:16 PM	#4
Legolas Elven Warrior Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Vilnius, Lithuania Posts: 171	Tirith and Morgul? Strange... In my version, it is said that "the book represents events which happened in the area between Minas Morgul and Orthank". __________________ Legolas - a stupid stubborn elf

12-23-2001, 01:56 PM	#5
galadriel Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: a castle made of clouds Posts: 459	I'm pretty sure it's Minas Morgul and Orthanc. __________________ Human kind cannot bear very much reality. dreamflower - for all things Lady Galadriel

12-23-2001, 05:41 PM	#9
Comic Book Guy Best Ex-Administrator ever Join Date: May 2001 Location: Ireland Posts: 60,547	The Title does refer to Minas Morgul and Minas Tirith, firstly the name 'The Two Towers' fits in to the fact that the two towers are actually twins, some of the events take place near these towers and the orignal designs for the book (designed by Tolkien) clearly show Tirith and Morgul, It shows a white tower with a tree above it and to its right it shows a black tower. Last edited by Comic Book Guy : 12-23-2001 at 05:47 PM.

12-22-2001, 08:13 PM	#3
Comic Book Guy Best Ex-Administrator ever Join Date: May 2001 Location: Ireland Posts: 60,547	The Title 'The Two Towers' refers to Minas Tirith and Minas Ithil (Morgul).

12-23-2001, 03:43 PM	#7
KGamgee Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 103	Yep, Minas Morgul and Orthanc.

12-23-2001, 03:53 PM	#8
Lightice Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 192	Really? I always taught, that it was referring to Narchost and Carchost, the Fang Towers at Morannon...

12-23-2001, 05:59 PM	#10
Ã‘Ã³lendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	I think Tolkien changed his mind a bit about which towers the Two Towers applied to. But I know that in the final version of the jacket design, the two Towers depicted are indeed Minas Morgul and Orthanc. Minas Morgul has the Nine Rings illustrated on it, with a moon in a Ring above it and a 'Winged Nazgul', and Orthanc has a White Hand design above it. Minas Tirith would be little odd, don't you think? It doesn't appear in Volume II, Treason of Isengard ends with Pippin and Gandalf on their way to it. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

12-23-2001, 11:19 PM	#11
CardenIAntauraNauco Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: rural oklahoma Posts: 324	I think it is Morgul and Tirith In the Quenyan texts the title is "I Atta Mindu " I = the, Atta = two, Mindu - this is towers in dual form. Meaning they have to be associated with one another. Their are two types of plural one for two unassociated objects and one fore related,the aforementioned "dual form". So I hold with the The Minas Morgul and Minas Tirith belief. __________________ "We will have peace","Yes we will have peace...we will have peace when you and all your works have perished - and the works of your dark lord to whom you would deliver us. You are a liar,Saruman,and a corrupter of men's hearts. You hold out your hand to me and I percieve only a finger of the claw of Mordor. Cruel and cold! Even if your war on me was just - as it was not,for were you ten times as wise you would have no right to rule me and mine, for your own profit you desired-even so, what will you say of your Torches in westfold and the children that lie dead there? And they hewed Hama's body before the gates of Hornburg, after he was dead. When you hang from a gibbet at your window for the sport of your own crows, I will have peace with you and Orthanc. So much for the House of Eorl. A lesser son of greater Sires am I, but I do not need to lick your fingers. Turn elsewither for I fear your voice has lost it's charm.

12-23-2001, 11:25 PM	#12
CardenIAntauraNauco Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: rural oklahoma Posts: 324	but i think your right that their was some indesciveness on the part of Tolkien- I think he originally meant Minas Tirith and Minas Morgul but considering changed the meaning. __________________ "We will have peace","Yes we will have peace...we will have peace when you and all your works have perished - and the works of your dark lord to whom you would deliver us. You are a liar,Saruman,and a corrupter of men's hearts. You hold out your hand to me and I percieve only a finger of the claw of Mordor. Cruel and cold! Even if your war on me was just - as it was not,for were you ten times as wise you would have no right to rule me and mine, for your own profit you desired-even so, what will you say of your Torches in westfold and the children that lie dead there? And they hewed Hama's body before the gates of Hornburg, after he was dead. When you hang from a gibbet at your window for the sport of your own crows, I will have peace with you and Orthanc. So much for the House of Eorl. A lesser son of greater Sires am I, but I do not need to lick your fingers. Turn elsewither for I fear your voice has lost it's charm.

12-24-2001, 02:24 AM	#13
Ã‘Ã³lendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	Orthanc and Morgul are connected by the PalantÃri, aren't they? I mean, there PalantÃr of Ithil at the time of the LotR resided in Barad-dÃ»r, but it used to be in Ithil. And there were the NazgÃ»l going back and forth between the two during the book. Look at this way: the only towers seen in Book III include the tower in the Burg of the Hornburg, and Orthanc. The only towers seen in Book IV are the Towers of the Teeth on the Black Gate, Minas Morgul, and (briefly) the Tower of Cirith Ungol. Minas Tirith isn't seen at all. We can all agree I'm sure that the tower in the Hornburg is out of the question, so we should have these options: Orthanc and Ungol, Orthanc and Morgul or the Towers of the Teeth. But 'Two Towers' was invented to link the two (really unrelated plot-wise) Books together. So I think we can rule out the towers on the Morannon, which only are seen in Book IV. So we have Orthanc and Ungol or Orthanc and Morgul. Orthanc and Morgul makes more sense to me. Minas Tirith isn't in the Two Towers! __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

12-24-2001, 11:40 AM	#14
CardenIAntauraNauco Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: rural oklahoma Posts: 324	that sounds right; it would make sense for the comparison to be that of the palantir __________________ "We will have peace","Yes we will have peace...we will have peace when you and all your works have perished - and the works of your dark lord to whom you would deliver us. You are a liar,Saruman,and a corrupter of men's hearts. You hold out your hand to me and I percieve only a finger of the claw of Mordor. Cruel and cold! Even if your war on me was just - as it was not,for were you ten times as wise you would have no right to rule me and mine, for your own profit you desired-even so, what will you say of your Torches in westfold and the children that lie dead there? And they hewed Hama's body before the gates of Hornburg, after he was dead. When you hang from a gibbet at your window for the sport of your own crows, I will have peace with you and Orthanc. So much for the House of Eorl. A lesser son of greater Sires am I, but I do not need to lick your fingers. Turn elsewither for I fear your voice has lost it's charm.

12-27-2001, 09:52 PM	#15
KGamgee Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 103	Look at the VERY VERY VERY end of book one, and it will mention Minas Morgul and Orthanc.

12-31-2001, 04:02 AM	#16
Michael Martinez Elven Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2000 Posts: 892	Tolkien proposed the title in Letter 140 (written on August 17, 1953): "The Fellowship of the Ring will do, I think; it fits well with the fact that the last chapter of the Volume is The Breaking of the Fellowship. The Two Towers gets as near as possible to finding a title over the widely divergent Books 3 and 4; and can be left ambiguous -- it might refer to Isengard and Barad-dur, or to Minas Tirith and B; or Isengard and Cirith Ungol. On reflection I prefer fo Vol. III The War of the Ring, since it gets in the Ring again; and also is more non-committal, and gives less hint about the turn of the story: the chapter titles have been chosen also to give away as little as possible in advance. But I am not set in my choice." __________________ http://www.xenite.org/faqs/lotr_movie/ http://www.michael-martinez.com/ http://www.merp.com/essays/MichaelMartinez/

12-31-2001, 07:51 AM	#17
Gimly Enting Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Here Posts: 53	I'm just thinking, if the title is supposed to link between the books then It's surely not Orthanc, since it's not in the fourth book. __________________ Five exclamation marks, the sure sign of an insane mind.

12-31-2001, 09:18 AM	#18
ArwenEvenstar Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: and why do YOU want to know? Posts: 685	well thanks for the help even if we are still undecided __________________ The only thing active about me is my imagination!

01-02-2002, 03:11 AM	#19
FrodoFriend Halfwitted Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Eryn Vorn Posts: 1,659	hey, if tolkien didn't know himself, how is anyone else supposed to?

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Deleted scenes from Two Towers....	DÃºnedain	Lord of the Rings Movies	1	01-05-2003 02:15 AM
Lord of the Rings: Two Towers on cover of Time	jerseydevil	Lord of the Rings Movies	22	12-06-2002 01:39 AM
Most anticipated movies of 2002	Ben	Entertainment Forum	34	05-27-2002 01:35 AM
Fawlty Towers	Imladris	Entertainment Forum	19	05-16-2002 02:59 AM
White Towers and the Palantir	afro-elf	Lord of the Rings Books	4	03-10-2002 12:59 AM