frodo dying?

Gamigar · 10-12-2003, 10:11 PM

In TTT galadriel says that the quest will claim frodos life. What do you think that means? Do you think that pj will kill off frodo?

smaug_the_magnificent · 10-12-2003, 10:30 PM

The "Quest does claim Frodo's life" in Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings..

The westward passage of Frodo from Middle Earth across the sea to the Blessed Realm in S.R. 1421, is in essence the death of Frodo..

Galadriel's prophecy in the film is in fact correct.. Though how PJ will explain to audiences in an unambiguous way that Frodo taking the ship at the Grey Havens is akin to the act of passing away from the physical world, is anyone's guess..

Of course there's always the possibility that PJ won't flesh out the notion of Frodo's death in the Grey Haven's scene and moviegoers will have to conclude that sometimes, even the Elves get it wrong sometimes!

cassiopeia · 10-12-2003, 10:32 PM

I don't believe PJ will kill Frodo off. I don't understand why Galadriel would say the quest will claim his life -- assuming she is speaking of the truth. My only guess is that

Frodo's passing over the sea is seen as a kind of 'death' in the movies.

Edit: smaug_the_magnificent beat me to it (and said it much better).

smaug_the_magnificent · 10-12-2003, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cassiopeia
My only guess is that

Frodo's passing over the sea is seen as a kind of 'death' in the movies.

That is not how it is seen in the movies... That is how it IS, FULL STOP

That is what the book implies! ..and I'm pretty sure the movie will follow suit

***azalea*** · 10-13-2003, 09:56 AM

I know that this won't be how it was for many people, but I saw that line as meaning that it takes his life (which it does), but not that it will kill him. IOW, she was saying that even if he succeeds in his quest, he will suffer for the rest of his life, will have no peace or comfort, will never fully heal from both the physical and mental wounds he has suffered. Not only does he have the Wound, but he'll have one of the worst cases of post-traumatic stress disorder ever. The quest claims the life he had and could have had.
Leaving the circles of the world is not a death, it's a departure, and an opportunity for healing the spirit. He does die eventually, but that's because he is a mortal.

Black Breathalizer · 10-13-2003, 12:37 PM

I may not always agree with azalea's administrative decisions, but I agree with her comments here.

I suspect that near the end of the movie, Gandalf will make some comment about Frodo never living a normal life again even though the ring has been destroyed as a way of bringing closure to Galadriel's prediction for the audience.

Alqualaure · 10-13-2003, 01:41 PM

I've been wondering the same thing of late, and have more or less come to the same conclusion as Azalea. I feared at first that Galadriel's prediction meant that PJ would actually have Frodo die in the Cracks of Doom or something... but I really don't think that will be the case at all. The Quest does indeed "claim his life" - it takes it over completely, doesn' it?

PS to Azalea - "one of the worst cases of post-traumatic stress disorder ever" - ROFLAO!!!!!!!!!! Sad but true - it just cracked me up the way you put it!

Alqua

***azalea*** · 10-13-2003, 09:31 PM

Also, I think the line might have been included for some dramatic tension, a bit of "false foreshadowing" to keep that possibility open for the non-reader, highlighting the dangerousness of Frodo's quest. I think audiences might recall that line during the Shelob episode, and might be tricked, as Sam is, into thinking he really is dead. The poor saps!

LuthienTinuviel · 10-13-2003, 10:46 PM

Quote:

That is what the book implies! ..and I'm pretty sure the movie will follow suit

when else has PJ followed THAT statement

kiwi52291 · 10-14-2003, 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by azalea

Also, I think the line might have been included for some dramatic tension, a bit of "false foreshadowing" to keep that possibility open for the non-reader, highlighting the dangerousness of Frodo's quest. I think audiences might recall that line during the Shelob episode, and might be tricked, as Sam is, into thinking he really is dead. The poor saps!

hahahahaha!

That's right!

Dúnedain · 10-14-2003, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by azalea
I know that this won't be how it was for many people, but I saw that line as meaning that it takes his life (which it does), but not that it will kill him. IOW, she was saying that even if he succeeds in his quest, he will suffer for the rest of his life, will have no peace or comfort, will never fully heal from both the physical and mental wounds he has suffered. Not only does he have the Wound, but he'll have one of the worst cases of post-traumatic stress disorder ever. The quest claims the life he had and could have had.
Leaving the circles of the world is not a death, it's a departure, and an opportunity for healing the spirit. He does die eventually, but that's because he is a mortal.

I totally agree, also remember the comment that's made in Rivendell by Gandalf I believe "That wound will never fully heal, he will have it for the rest of his life" or something to that effect. Ultimately, Frodo's life is forever changed when the Ring "came" to him. By Galadriel stating "the quest will claim his life", knowing the outcome from the books, I look at this more as a Metaphor of his life than anything, not his literal death. I do believe as it was said above this also gives a dramatic effect for those not as familiar with the book.

This not only sets up the incident with Shelob, I know when I read the book the first time I thought Frodo was dead too after he battled with Shelob, the moviegoer will now get that same effect times two because of Galadriel's statement. I would also bet anything that it will appear that Frodo dies in Mount Doom when fighting with Gollum, as if he fell in with Gollum, but somehow he is saved...

Elfhelm · 10-14-2003, 01:42 PM

*tsk* ...but what grace Arwen had was passed to him, so the quest would claim his life but Arwen's grace will sustain him and she will live as a human. Maybe Elrond will even mention his brother making the same choice. Obviously, nowhere in the holy writings does Arwen pass her grace to Frodo, but it will be the Hollywood solution.

Black Breathalizer · 10-14-2003, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elfhelm
*tsk* ...but what grace Arwen had was passed to (Frodo).

Arwen's comment about "what grace I have..." at the ford was simply a figure of speech. She did not give away her immortality then. It will happen in ROTK.

Elfhelm · 10-14-2003, 03:51 PM

BB, I realize you think you can predict PJ's silliness, but I really think my prediction is not beyond his capabilities as a re-writer.

[edit]

Elrond: You gave away your life's grace!

Dúnedain · 10-14-2003, 04:32 PM

Here is something else to back the theory above. I was just watching my Two Towers DVD and watched the Preview for the Extended Edition. They showed the Dead Marshes scene and Gollum was looking at Frodo holding the ring and Gollum said this about the ring:

"Once it takes hold of us it never lets go."

It is because of the evil and greed that consumes them and pauses their life. Once that bond is broken with the ring, what is left? Not much, your will is gone, you feel broken and the emptyness is unbearable...

Dúnedain · 10-14-2003, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elfhelm
BB, I realize you think you can predict PJ's silliness, but I really think my prediction is not beyond his capabilities as a re-writer.

[edit]

Elrond: You gave away your life's grace!

I think you and others have been way to hard on PJ for unfounded reasons. Think of the things he actually had to write that Tolkien didn't. For instance intricate battle sequences and tactics for the screen. Tolkien only spoke of how the battle went, he didn't create battlefield tactics and maneuvers that PJ and company had to do for the movies...

Gotta give credit where it is due, even if you are a loyalist...

Elfhelm · 10-14-2003, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dúnedain
I think you and others have been way to hard on PJ for unfounded reasons. Think of the things he actually had to write that Tolkien didn't. For instance intricate battle sequences and tactics for the screen. Tolkien only spoke of how the battle went, he didn't create battlefield tactics and maneuvers that PJ and company had to do for the movies...

Gotta give credit where it is due, even if you are a loyalist...

I know. You are so right. Think of all that extra love scene dialog they had to make up. I should have more empathy.

But I seriously believe the "grace" bit. I will even wager BB on it. BB, if it turns out I am guessing right, will you post "PJ sux"? please?

Eärloth · 10-15-2003, 04:51 AM

I think that when Galadriel says "The Quest will claim his life" she means his life's happiness, and therefore much of his life's meaning; that...kind of happens.

Black Breathalizer · 10-15-2003, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elfhelm
I seriously believe the "grace" bit. I will even wager BB on it. BB, if it turns out I am guessing right, will you post "PJ sux"? please?

First off, if Arwen gave her immortality away at the fords, then why in the world would Elrond be trying to convince both Aragorn and Arwen that she should go to Valinor??? Your scenario doesn't make any sense.

Second, PJ wouldn't waste an incredibly dramatic moment such as this one with an ambiguous phrase at the fords where the audience's focus is on Frodo's health. This dramatic moment of self-sacrifice was tailor-made for ROTK and that is exactly what the recent trailer hints at.

***azalea*** · 10-15-2003, 01:49 PM

IMO, "Grace" does not equal "immortality." When she says, "What grace I have, let it pass into him," I didn't take it as meaning "Please take my immortality and exchange it for allowing Frodo to live." I don't think that's even possible.

(not that that has stopped PJ in other cases, I know. :P )
What it meant (if I'm correct) was that she was asking that what natural "elf power" she possesses might sustain him until she is able to reach her father. This was probably another way of conveying to the audience that elves are different, that they naturally possess healing powers (or healing knowledge) that men and hobbits do not (or at least SHE does, perhaps by virtue of being Elrond's daughter, who knows).

10-12-2003, 10:11 PM	#1
Gamigar Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: somewhere between here and there Posts: 116	frodo dying? In TTT galadriel says that the quest will claim frodos life. What do you think that means? Do you think that pj will kill off frodo? __________________ The road goes ever on and on Down from the door where it began Now far ahead the road has gone And I must follow if I can Pursuing it with eager feet Until it joins some larger way Where many paths and errands meet And wither then I can not say

10-13-2003, 01:41 PM	#7
Alqualaure Enting Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: South Carolina Posts: 62	I've been wondering the same thing of late, and have more or less come to the same conclusion as Azalea. I feared at first that Galadriel's prediction meant that PJ would actually have Frodo die in the Cracks of Doom or something... but I really don't think that will be the case at all. The Quest does indeed "claim his life" - it takes it over completely, doesn' it? PS to Azalea - "one of the worst cases of post-traumatic stress disorder ever" - ROFLAO!!!!!!!!!! Sad but true - it just cracked me up the way you put it! Alqua __________________ Ma il mio mistero e chiuso in me, il nome mio nessun sapra! No, no, sulla tua bocca lo diro' quando la luce splendera'! Ed il mio bacio scioglier?* il silenzio che ti fa mia! - from Turandot; Nessun dorma by Puccini

10-14-2003, 01:42 PM	#12
Elfhelm Marshal of the Eastmark Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 1,412	tsk ...but what grace Arwen had was passed to him, so the quest would claim his life but Arwen's grace will sustain him and she will live as a human. Maybe Elrond will even mention his brother making the same choice. Obviously, nowhere in the holy writings does Arwen pass her grace to Frodo, but it will be the Hollywood solution. __________________ cya

10-14-2003, 03:51 PM	#14
Elfhelm Marshal of the Eastmark Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 1,412	BB, I realize you think you can predict PJ's silliness, but I really think my prediction is not beyond his capabilities as a re-writer. [edit] Elrond: You gave away your life's grace! __________________ cya Last edited by Elfhelm : 10-14-2003 at 03:54 PM.

10-14-2003, 04:32 PM	#15
Dúnedain High King of Númenórë Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Númenórë <--United States of America Posts: 1,947	Here is something else to back the theory above. I was just watching my Two Towers DVD and watched the Preview for the Extended Edition. They showed the Dead Marshes scene and Gollum was looking at Frodo holding the ring and Gollum said this about the ring: "Once it takes hold of us it never lets go." It is because of the evil and greed that consumes them and pauses their life. Once that bond is broken with the ring, what is left? Not much, your will is gone, you feel broken and the emptyness is unbearable... __________________ 'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen

10-12-2003, 10:30 PM	#2
smaug_the_magnificent Hobbit Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Sydney Posts: 28	The "Quest does claim Frodo's life" in Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings.. The westward passage of Frodo from Middle Earth across the sea to the Blessed Realm in S.R. 1421, is in essence the death of Frodo.. Galadriel's prophecy in the film is in fact correct.. Though how PJ will explain to audiences in an unambiguous way that Frodo taking the ship at the Grey Havens is akin to the act of passing away from the physical world, is anyone's guess.. Of course there's always the possibility that PJ won't flesh out the notion of Frodo's death in the Grey Haven's scene and moviegoers will have to conclude that sometimes, even the Elves get it wrong sometimes!

10-13-2003, 09:56 AM	#5
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	I know that this won't be how it was for many people, but I saw that line as meaning that it takes his life (which it does), but not that it will kill him. IOW, she was saying that even if he succeeds in his quest, he will suffer for the rest of his life, will have no peace or comfort, will never fully heal from both the physical and mental wounds he has suffered. Not only does he have the Wound, but he'll have one of the worst cases of post-traumatic stress disorder ever. The quest claims the life he had and could have had. Leaving the circles of the world is not a death, it's a departure, and an opportunity for healing the spirit. He does die eventually, but that's because he is a mortal.

10-13-2003, 12:37 PM	#6
Black Breathalizer Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 828	I may not always agree with azalea's administrative decisions, but I agree with her comments here. I suspect that near the end of the movie, Gandalf will make some comment about Frodo never living a normal life again even though the ring has been destroyed as a way of bringing closure to Galadriel's prediction for the audience.

10-13-2003, 09:31 PM	#8
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	Also, I think the line might have been included for some dramatic tension, a bit of "false foreshadowing" to keep that possibility open for the non-reader, highlighting the dangerousness of Frodo's quest. I think audiences might recall that line during the Shelob episode, and might be tricked, as Sam is, into thinking he really is dead. The poor saps!

10-15-2003, 04:51 AM	#18
Eärloth Elven Warrior Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: EsCaPiNg FrOm tHiS HeLL iNtO My NiGHtMaReS Posts: 312	I think that when Galadriel says "The Quest will claim his life" she means his life's happiness, and therefore much of his life's meaning; that...kind of happens. __________________ Lothên will be found! Telperinai pennar niei rossenen, iéni únótimai be m?ri Aiaro! Man erca óre nio ettuccuba? S? mapuba Ulmo ciria ma be findi-falla; Baradis mentuba i Elestel i en tulia me Annúne pella, nimpei srestanai or helle cúna, helle rácina. Nan merin minia lóte elanar an sire cenin Ennor tellabe. Namárie! Autame Balinórena, Ennórelo autai! Namárie!

10-15-2003, 01:49 PM	#20
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	IMO, "Grace" does not equal "immortality." When she says, "What grace I have, let it pass into him," I didn't take it as meaning "Please take my immortality and exchange it for allowing Frodo to live." I don't think that's even possible. (not that that has stopped PJ in other cases, I know. :P ) What it meant (if I'm correct) was that she was asking that what natural "elf power" she possesses might sustain him until she is able to reach her father. This was probably another way of conveying to the audience that elves are different, that they naturally possess healing powers (or healing knowledge) that men and hobbits do not (or at least SHE does, perhaps by virtue of being Elrond's daughter, who knows).

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