Morgoth Alive???????

[Turgon_Turambar]

Could morgoth still be alive????????
i know his hands and feet were chopped off and a chain put on his neck and he was thrust out of the circles of the world
but that doesnt mean hes dead............
Could he somehow be brought back????????

[Attalus]

He was cast into the Void, and cannot return without Iluvatar's permission.

[Arien the Maia]

I don't think you can kill a Vala or a Maia. But he can't come back from the Void until the last battle right? Is the Void still within the Circles of the World? When men die, they leave the Circles of the world, they wouldn't go to the void with Morgoth would they?

[Turgon_Turambar]

Although very,very,(very) evil Morgoth was still a valar and cant die so just by being thrust into the void doesnt mean he is dead.
and it has been said that earendil was able to sail through the circles of the world in his ship so the place must be hospitable.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Turgon_Turambar
Could morgoth still be alive????????
i know his hands and feet were chopped off and a chain put on his neck and he was thrust out of the circles of the world
but that doesnt mean hes dead............
Could he somehow be brought back????????

His hands and feet were chopped off? Odd, I don't remember reading that. I remember the chain but I can't imagine the Valar would go as far as mutilation. I'll have to reread that again.

As for him being still alive, I'm pretty certain of that. As Arien the maia said, he's expected back for the final battle.

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
When men die, they leave the Circles of the world, they wouldn't go to the void with Morgoth would they?

I certainly hope not! But it would be very bad management from Eru is Men did end up with Morgoth in the Void, though.

[Durin1]

I think that when Morgoth was cast into the Void, he would have been in his natural "spirit" form as opposed to the physical shape he took in ME, although this spirit would have been greatly diminished. The chain Angainor would (in my opinion) have been only used to keep Morgoth captive and wouldn't have gone with him into the Void.

[Sween]

Morgoth in many ways has never left the world he poured much of himself into the world that is its knoiwn as the Morgoth element he wasted much of his inner strength (which was the greatest of all the Valar to begin with) on other he would of put forth a lot into his servents and slaves he probably lent great power to the dragons to enable their existance! Its not clear if he lent any power to Sauron whom i deem was one of the greatest of the Maia (but not the greatest perhaps). This ment that he would bound to the earth in a more than physical sence! Breland would of fallen mainly because he was so bound to that part of the world and had so much power invested in it to take him away riped the world apart this is why the Valar did not like going to war with him because it hurt the world so much.

He canot be killed as is the same with al of the Ainur of course but i think hes very mainable for the Valar

[Lefty Scaevola]

Some of Tolkien note expand a bit on what the vlar did to Morgoth after the war of wrath, (hands, feet, ect). To make it hard for him to return, they destroyed and dispersed his body, and thrust his cippled spirit into the void.

[Eladar]

According to Morgoth's Ring, the Valar cut of Morgoth's head. Since at this time he was an incarnate, this lessened his power greatly.

Yet Morgoth's original power was so great that he could never reach such a low level that he could not rebuild his power again. Sauron, Gothmog, Saruman and the rest of the Ainur who die as incarnates do reach such a low level that they can't return.


****One thing I'd like to point out is that no spirit can be destoyed, be it Fea or Eala****

[Blackheart]

The void is just the area outside Arda, where everything came from.

If you want a trite analogy, It's like they put Melkor into the penalty box for unsportsman like conduct (sticking! 5 minutes) but he's not out of the game.

His essence has marked Arda, and as such, he cannot be permanantly removed from "the game". Only put into the "penalty box".

At the last battle, when he is released from the pit (you DO realize that Tolkein's Cosmology folds neatly into a Christian genesis/revelations cosmology) He and probably the other fallen ainur will fight in the Ragnarok (nordic) or apocalypse (christian).

[Percy Weasley]

Although very,very,(very) evil Morgoth was still a valar

Simply to be pedantic, I must state that according to The Silmarillion, Morgoth/Melkor is technically not considered to be a Vala.

Melkor is counted no longer among the Valar, and his name is not spoken upon Earth.

He is, however, an Ainu, and as such cannot be killed. He can be imprisoned, etc., but there will always be a bit of darkness hanging over Arda, for as long as he exists there will always be the chance that he will be able to find a way to return.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Percy Weasley
Simply to be pedantic, I must state that according to The Silmarillion, Morgoth/Melkor is technically not considered to be a Vala.

He wasn't a Vala, but had as much power as one of the Valar. And that's what he meant.

He is, however, an Ainu, and as such cannot be killed. He can be imprisoned, etc., but there will always be a bit of darkness hanging over Arda, for as long as he exists there will always be the chance that he will be able to find a way to return.

Ainu can be killed - like Gandalf. Gandalf was still 'alive', but outside of Arda. (And Saruman) If you say that's not to be killed - it's like saying men cannot be killed.

[Percy Weasley]

Ainu can be killed - like Gandalf. Gandalf was still 'alive', but outside of Arda. (And Saruman) If you say that's not to be killed - it's like saying men cannot be killed.

I must respectfully disagree. Ainu can not be killed. They are immortal. Gandalf's (and Saruman's) physical form could be destroyed, but not his spirit, which is the quintessential part of the Ainu. The Silmarillion states that the Ainu wear physical forms as clothing, and that they are not, as they are for men and elves, crucial to their beings.

[Eladar]

The Silmarillion states that the Ainu wear physical forms as clothing, and that they are not, as they are for men and elves, crucial to their beings.

If you are to find Tolkien's view on this matter you are going to need to dig into HoME.

According to Tolkien there are two types of souls: fear and ealar.

Fear are the souls that requires a hroar (bodies) in order to be complete. There is one hroa that is 'mated' to the fea to make a complete being. Therefore in order to be complete that fea must inhabit its hroa. These kinds of beings are also described as incarnates

Ealar are the souls that exist naturally with as spirits and do not require hroar, but can take physical form.

According to Tolkien, it is possible for and eala to become an incarnate. If the eala takes a certain form long enough and enjoys the pleasures of the flesh long enough or has children, then the eala becomes incarnate. That paticular form becomes a necessary component for the soul to be complete.

Tolkien wrote that Morgoth became an incaranate and was killed.

From Morgoth's Ring:

The war was successful, and ruin was limited to the small (if beautiful) region of Beleriand. Morgoth was thus actually made captive in physical form, and in that form taken as a mere criminal to Aman and delivered to Námo Mandos as judge – and executioner. He was judged, and eventually taken out of the Blessed Realm and executed: that is killed like one of the Incarnates. It was then made plain (though it must have been understood beforehand by Manwë and Námo) that, though he had ‘disseminated’ his power (his evil and possessive and rebellious will) far and wide into the matter of Arda, he had lost direct control of this, and all that ‘he’, as a surviving remnant of integral being, retained as himself and under control was the terribly shrunken and reduced spirit that inhabited his self-imposed (but now beloved) body. When that body was destroyed he was weak and utterly ‘houseless’, and for that time at a loss and ‘unanchored’ as it were. We read that he was then thrust out into the Void. That should mean that he was put outside Time and Space, outside Eä altogether; but if that were so this would imply a direct intervention of Eru (with or without supplication of the Valar). It may however refer inaccurately to the extrusion or flight of his spirit from Arda.

[Eladar]

One thing I would like to add is that neither a fea nor an hroa can be destroyed. No spirit can be killed, at least by another spirit. Therefore one could argue that all beings with spirits are immortal. What makes Elves immortal is that they were ment to exist in Ea as long as Ea existed, therefore their spirits could be given remade bodies and live again. Men souls, on the other hand, passed from Ea.

If one is going to make the distinction between Men and Elves, then one can also make the distintion bewteen Ainur because some do cease to interact with Ea after their death (Men) while others can rebuild(Elves).

From Morgoth's Ring

In any case, in seeking to absorb or rather to infiltrate himself throughout ‘matter’, what was then left of him was no longer powerful enough to reclothe itself. (It would now remain fixed in the desire to do so: there was no ‘repentance’ or possibility of it: Melkor had abandoned for ever all ‘spiritual’ ambitions, and existed almost solely as a desire to possess and dominate matter, and Arda in particular.) At least it could not yet reclothe itself. We need not suppose that Manwe was deluded into supposing that this had been a war to end war, or even to end Melkor. Melkor was not Sauron. We speak of him being ‘weakened, shrunken, reduced’ ; but this in comparison with the great Valar. He had been a being of immense potency and life. The Elves certainly held and taught that fear or ‘spirits’ may grow of their own life (independently of the body), even as they may be hurt and healed, be diminished and renewed.*

The dark spirit of Melkor’s ’remainder’ might be expected, therefore, eventually and after along ages to increase again, even (as some held) to draw back into itself some of its formerly dissipated power. It would do this (even though Sauron could not) because of its relative greatness. It did not repent, or turn finally away from its obsession, but retained still relics of wisdom, so that it could still seek its object indirectly, and not merely blindly. It would rest, seek to heal itself, distract itself by other thoughts and desires and devices- but all simply to recover enough strength to return to the attack on the Valar, and to its old obsession. As it grew again it would become, as it were, a dark shadow, brooding on the confines of Arda, and yearning towards it.


*The following was added marginally after the page was written: If they do not sink below a cerain level. Since no fea can be annihilated, reduced to zero or not-existing, it is no[t] clear what is meant. Thus Sauron was said to have fallen below the point of ever recovering, though he had previously recovered. What is probably meant is that a ‘wicked’ spirit becomes fixed in a certain desire or ambition, and if it connot repent then this desire becomes virtually its whole being. But the desire may be wholly beyond the weakness it has fallen to, and it will then be unable to withdraw its attention from the unobtainable desire, even to attend to itself. It will then remain for ever in impotent desire or memory of desire.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Percy Weasley
I must respectfully disagree. Ainu can not be killed. They are immortal. Gandalf's (and Saruman's) physical form could be destroyed, but not his spirit, which is the quintessential part of the Ainu. The Silmarillion states that the Ainu wear physical forms as clothing, and that they are not, as they are for men and elves, crucial to their beings.

Gandalf and Saruman weren't reguler Mayar that have body; they could not get out of it until they finish their mission and return to Valnior. Also, when their body is killed, they would find themselves out of arda.

[Eladar]

Also, when their body is killed, they would find themselves out of arda.

This statement is false, outside of a direct intervention by Eru himself.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Eladar
outside of a direct intervention by Eru himself.

What do you mean?

[Eladar]

Gandalf and Saruman are still Maiar. According to the Simarillion, those Ainur who entered Ea could not leave until the end of Ea.

In order for Morgoth to be cast out into the void, it took an act of Eru since he was an Ainu too.

Where did you get the idea that Gandalf and Saruman could leave Ea?

[Radagast The Brown]

I'n not sure.

Where did Gandalf go then? "Naked I was sent back" - to Ea.