Astronomy of Middle Earth

Jedi X · 10-01-2003, 04:19 PM

I was wondering if anyone knew of any word JRR gave concerning the astronomical significances and/or explanations of some of the passages in the books.

At the end of 'Strider' in FOTR; Frodo gazes at the Sickle in the clear night sky. The *note giving that this is also called the Plough or Great Bear- obviously being the Big Dipper.

In the chapter 'Three is Company' there is the mentioning of Remmirath (the Netted Stars) which I assume to be the Pleiades; Menelvagor (the Swordsman of the Sky), presumably Orion with his "shining belt"; and red Borgil, which I assume to be Mars.

Are there any other constellations/stars that bear mention in the works? Did JRR have anything to say concerning these?

Now, if this is something that is commonly known ("it's in Appendix IV; Skies of Middle-Earth; Lost Book of the Works; Section XI- Fool!") then I willingly submit to stoning. I ask only that you use the little, smooth stone and not the big, pointy ones (those ones hurt!).

Elf Girl · 10-01-2003, 06:07 PM

Well, Wilwarin means 'butterfly' means Cassiopeia. (however you spell that.)

I did some calculations with an astronomy program awhile ago, and found that if it's one in the morning in Wales, the Pleiades and Orion are indeed in the positions described. I think red Borgil refers to Betelgeuse, actually, because that's where Borgil is described. The hour is late, but you will recall that Pippin had actually fallen asleep along the way, so it would have to be.

Jedi X · 10-01-2003, 11:43 PM

Elf Girl, you did calculations with an astronomy program? That is so freaking awesome! You rule!

I originally pinned Borgil as Betelguese, too. But, I figured since the passage mentioned Orion being hidden by the fog that Betelguese would have been as well. With the war about to get underway, I figured JRR was refering to Mars, the Bringer of War.

I suppose Betelguese could be refered to, but if so then a good portion of Orion would have been above the fog as well. One of the reasons I was wondering if JRR had ever mentioned these things was to actually clear that up.

Where is the Butterfly mentioned?

cassiopeia · 10-03-2003, 03:09 AM

I believe Wilwarin is mentioned in the Silmarillion (Varda set it in the heavens along with some other constellations) -- perhaps it is my namesake.

Elf Girl · 10-03-2003, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jedi X
Elf Girl, you did calculations with an astronomy program? That is so freaking awesome! You rule!

Thank you! (My dad has an awesome program called Skyglobe. You can set the location, and the time, and see what the skies will look like in hundreds of years... it's fun.)I'll include the quote from Three is Company, just for reference:

Quote:

Away high in the East swung Remirath, the Netted Stars, and slowly abouve the mists red Borgil rose, glowing like a jewel of fire. Then by some shift of airs all the mist was drawn away like a veil, and there leaned up, as he climbed over the rimof the world, the Swordsman of the Sky, Menelvagor with his shining belt. The Elves all burst into song....

Hang on... let me get Skyglobe from wherever it's buried on my PC.

It doesn't work if I do it 6000 years in the past, but Tolkien didn't have access to technology that would allow him to view said 6000-year-old skies. Here's what I think they looked like today: (anything mentioned in the book is circled in blue. You can see the Pleiedes above, and then Red Borgil, which turns out to be Aldeberon, and then Menelvagor (Orion). I set it in Liverpool, the nearest preprogrammed location to Wales, at one in the morning. The green line is the horizon.)

Ithildin55 · 10-03-2003, 06:09 PM

Borgil might have been intended to represent Aldeberan instead of Betelgeuse. When seen rising Aldeberan would follow the Pleiades and precede Orion.

You might find this article at Mellonath Daeron of interest. It is entitled "Astronomical Objects in Middle-earth."

http://forodrim.letsrock.nu/daeron/md_astro.html

Ithildin55

Jedi X · 10-04-2003, 06:49 PM

Excellent. Most excellent. Thanks for the information.

*Jedi X hands Hershey's chocolate bars to everyone*

You've earned them.

Attalus · 10-04-2003, 08:08 PM

I've always assumed that the Remmirath was the Milky Way, but not in any systematic way. Good posts.

***Earniel*** · 10-05-2003, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elf Girl
Thank you! (My dad has an awesome program called Skyglobe. You can set the location, and the time, and see what the skies will look like in hundreds of years... it's fun.)

That sounds like one nifty program.

Elf Girl · 10-05-2003, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Attalus
I've always assumed that the Remmirath was the Milky Way, but not in any systematic way. Good posts.

Could be, but the Pleiades are more likely, considering their position in the sky at that time of night.

10-01-2003, 04:19 PM	#1
Jedi X Hobbit Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Behind the East Wind Posts: 22	Astronomy of Middle Earth I was wondering if anyone knew of any word JRR gave concerning the astronomical significances and/or explanations of some of the passages in the books. At the end of 'Strider' in FOTR; Frodo gazes at the Sickle in the clear night sky. The *note giving that this is also called the Plough or Great Bear- obviously being the Big Dipper. In the chapter 'Three is Company' there is the mentioning of Remmirath (the Netted Stars) which I assume to be the Pleiades; Menelvagor (the Swordsman of the Sky), presumably Orion with his "shining belt"; and red Borgil, which I assume to be Mars. Are there any other constellations/stars that bear mention in the works? Did JRR have anything to say concerning these? Now, if this is something that is commonly known ("it's in Appendix IV; Skies of Middle-Earth; Lost Book of the Works; Section XI- Fool!") then I willingly submit to stoning. I ask only that you use the little, smooth stone and not the big, pointy ones (those ones hurt!). __________________ That which was is that which will be; and that which is done is that which will be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

10-01-2003, 06:07 PM	#2
Elf Girl Lurker Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Lothlórien Posts: 3,419	Well, Wilwarin means 'butterfly' means Cassiopeia. (however you spell that.) I did some calculations with an astronomy program awhile ago, and found that if it's one in the morning in Wales, the Pleiades and Orion are indeed in the positions described. I think red Borgil refers to Betelgeuse, actually, because that's where Borgil is described. The hour is late, but you will recall that Pippin had actually fallen asleep along the way, so it would have to be. __________________ There's antimony, arsenic, aluminum, selenium... Last edited by Elf Girl : 11-23-2003 at 08:23 PM.

10-01-2003, 11:43 PM	#3
Jedi X Hobbit Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Behind the East Wind Posts: 22	Elf Girl, you did calculations with an astronomy program? That is so freaking awesome! You rule! I originally pinned Borgil as Betelguese, too. But, I figured since the passage mentioned Orion being hidden by the fog that Betelguese would have been as well. With the war about to get underway, I figured JRR was refering to Mars, the Bringer of War. I suppose Betelguese could be refered to, but if so then a good portion of Orion would have been above the fog as well. One of the reasons I was wondering if JRR had ever mentioned these things was to actually clear that up. Where is the Butterfly mentioned? __________________ That which was is that which will be; and that which is done is that which will be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

10-03-2003, 03:09 AM	#4
cassiopeia Viggoholic Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 1,749	I believe Wilwarin is mentioned in the Silmarillion (Varda set it in the heavens along with some other constellations) -- perhaps it is my namesake. __________________ Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try. Last edited by cassiopeia : 10-03-2003 at 03:11 AM.

10-03-2003, 06:09 PM	#6
Ithildin55 Hobbit Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: South Carolina Posts: 44	Borgil might have been intended to represent Aldeberan instead of Betelgeuse. When seen rising Aldeberan would follow the Pleiades and precede Orion. You might find this article at Mellonath Daeron of interest. It is entitled "Astronomical Objects in Middle-earth." http://forodrim.letsrock.nu/daeron/md_astro.html Ithildin55 __________________ “Well, I am going back into the open air, to see what the wind and sky are doing,” said Legolas. TTT Those who risk nothing – achieve nothing... STS-107 Columbia and Crew: Your Dream will live on. We will keep reaching for the stars.

10-04-2003, 06:49 PM	#7
Jedi X Hobbit Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Behind the East Wind Posts: 22	Excellent. Most excellent. Thanks for the information. Jedi X hands Hershey's chocolate bars to everyone You've earned them. __________________ That which was is that which will be; and that which is done is that which will be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

10-04-2003, 08:08 PM	#8
Attalus Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: On the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 1,125	I've always assumed that the Remmirath was the Milky Way, but not in any systematic way. Good posts. __________________ "What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial.

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