Sam is overloving

hectorberlioz · 09-29-2003, 12:39 AM

Its seems to me that in the movies, sam is "overloving" torwards frodo. in the books(i know, the books are not the movies) sam always calls frodo "master" and in thhe movies he calls him frodo. the movies make sam love frodo to much.
Is anyone bothered by this?

***IronParrot*** · 09-29-2003, 02:38 AM

No, I don't think there's a tremendous difference at all.

As for how he addresses Frodo, I think that change was made because modern audiences wouldn't understand the "master-servant" bond that Tolkien tried to espound. It's one of the ones I don't really agree with, but I see why it was done.

Elfhelm · 09-29-2003, 02:32 PM

In the books they kiss lips but not in the movies, so I say the opposite is true.

Note: Before getting distracted bu the modern significance of that act, please think outside our culture. Presumably lip kissing between hobbit gentlemen was normal expression of affection. The gesture had zero zilch nada none sexual meaning in their culture.

hectorberlioz · 09-29-2003, 03:52 PM

they dont kiss because of well...you know. it wasnt uncommon for people to kiss each other on the lips back then. only it wasnt for love, just a friends thing i guess.

Maybe youre right Ironparrot, maybe its me.

Elf Girl · 09-29-2003, 05:35 PM

O, it was for love. Not romantic love, but love as the truest of friends.

Black Breathalizer · 09-29-2003, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by IronParrot
As for how he addresses Frodo, I think that change was made because modern audiences wouldn't understand the "master-servant" bond that Tolkien tried to espound. It's one of the ones I don't really agree with, but I see why it was done.

I questioned that move before the movies came out too. Interestingly enough, after watching the first two Jackson films, I'm finding it more and more difficult to read Sam calling Frodo 'Master' in the books.

hectorberlioz · 09-30-2003, 01:31 AM

thank you for phrasing it the way i could not, elfgirl.

Evenstar1400 · 09-30-2003, 05:13 PM

PJ didnt have time to establish the master-servent bond in fotr, so PJ couldnt have sam calling frodo "master".

that make any sense?

hectorberlioz · 10-01-2003, 12:50 PM

no, it does not.

Elf Girl · 10-01-2003, 02:07 PM

Yes, it does.

Spock · 10-01-2003, 02:31 PM

Seeing it portrayed on film in the context of 21st Century moral and social upheaval can certainly give one pause. Without a backround in the books IMO it is very easy to get the wrong impression from the movies.

Elfhelm · 10-01-2003, 03:41 PM

Which "it"? Affection?

Jedi X · 10-01-2003, 03:52 PM

I thought the books portrayed a much more loving Samwise. The movie actor did a good job, I thought, of conveying the sense of 'philadelphia' with what little background the movie could provide and the absence of extensive narrative given in the books. All in all, though; I did not find a feeling of 'overlove' in the movies.

hectorberlioz · 10-02-2003, 12:37 AM

sam is not supposed to be more loving! to trash with the phelidelphia idea. sam should not be more loving. my name is sam and my friends (hardly friends anymore) take to calling me 'frodo's lover'. that is not why i started this thread though.

Spock · 10-02-2003, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by hectorberlioz
sam is not supposed to be more loving! to trash with the phelidelphia idea. sam should not be more loving. my name is sam and my friends (hardly friends anymore) take to calling me 'frodo's lover'. that is not why i started this thread though.

....hmnmm seems there are some unconscious issues here.

Sween · 10-02-2003, 11:50 AM

lol this thread is so stupid. As is the idea that they way sam is in the movie is a bit homosexual cos thats what you are all scared to say. A lot of people seem to think that Frodo and Sam are gay boys which is just stupid. Sam is the truest of friends you could hope for and Frodo well Frdo needs a good friend doesnt he

samwiselvr2008 · 10-02-2003, 01:35 PM

I think Sam was way more loveing in the books then in the movie, if you read through, it's alot more loving in the books, probally because PJ can't show on a screen what can be shown through the books.

Rosie Gamgee · 10-02-2003, 01:40 PM

Actually, in reply to the 'Master' vs. 'Frodo' deal, I think that Sam in the movies starts calling Frodo 'Master Frodo' and 'Mr. Frodo' a whole lot more in TTT than in the first film. Maybe that's just me.
Sam and Frodo are not gay! They are simply very good friends. Sam just cares very much for Frodo, and why not? We don't see too many life-long friendships like that anymore, but that is no reason to pick on them. And about the kissing in the books, I don't ever remember any lip-kissing. It just says 'kissed' as far as I remember. And if I went on a Quest like the one Frodo and Sam went on, the one person that went with me, although of inferior status, would quite quickly become my best friend. I should think that I would give her a peck on the cheek before leaving for Valinor.

p.s. It's SNOWING here!!! I cannnot believe it is snowing. We hates snow! We hates it forever!

Elfhelm · 10-02-2003, 03:58 PM

Sam is my favorite character. One of the main reasons I like him so much is that he has no artifice. If he doesn't like you, he doesn't pretend to be your pal. If he loves you, he is not afraid to show it - except that he's shy concerning Rosie Cotton. But overcoming his shyness is one of the things he has to learn. Saying his feelings for Rosie was harder than climbing Mount Doom, but in the end he did it. Yes, it was easier to show his love for his comrades than his desire for his true love. But aside from that, he wears no mask and I just love him!

The Gaffer · 10-02-2003, 04:15 PM

I'm with you, Elfhelm. Sam is the emotional touchstone of the whole book.

It's a sad reflection that audiences can't deal with love between two men without going "fnarr, fnarr". If you're getting stick off your mates because of it, HB, maybe they need to grow up a bit. Homophobia is such a destructive thing, and not just towards gay people; it affects us all.

It's one of the most powerful themes of LOTR, and hats off to PJ and co for not editing it out.

I'm trying to think of other films which successfully portray this kind of love without being coy or macho about it but can't come up with any. Any ideas?

09-29-2003, 12:39 AM	#1
hectorberlioz Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008 Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Lost in the Opera House Posts: 9,328	Sam is overloving Its seems to me that in the movies, sam is "overloving" torwards frodo. in the books(i know, the books are not the movies) sam always calls frodo "master" and in thhe movies he calls him frodo. the movies make sam love frodo to much. Is anyone bothered by this? __________________ ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide

09-29-2003, 02:38 AM	#2
*IronParrot* Fowl Administrator Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Calgary or Edmonton, Canada Posts: 53,420	No, I don't think there's a tremendous difference at all. As for how he addresses Frodo, I think that change was made because modern audiences wouldn't understand the "master-servant" bond that Tolkien tried to espound. It's one of the ones I don't really agree with, but I see why it was done. __________________ All of IronParrot's posts are guaranteed to be 100% intelligent and/or sarcastic, comprising no genetically modified content and tested on no cute furry little animals unless the SPCA is looking elsewhere. If you observe a failure to uphold this warranty, please contact a forum administrator immediately to receive a full refund on your Entmoot registration. Blog: Nick's Café Canadien

09-29-2003, 02:32 PM	#3
Elfhelm Marshal of the Eastmark Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 1,412	In the books they kiss lips but not in the movies, so I say the opposite is true. Note: Before getting distracted bu the modern significance of that act, please think outside our culture. Presumably lip kissing between hobbit gentlemen was normal expression of affection. The gesture had zero zilch nada none sexual meaning in their culture. __________________ cya

09-29-2003, 03:52 PM	#4
hectorberlioz Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008 Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Lost in the Opera House Posts: 9,328	they dont kiss because of well...you know. it wasnt uncommon for people to kiss each other on the lips back then. only it wasnt for love, just a friends thing i guess. Maybe youre right Ironparrot, maybe its me. __________________ ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide

09-29-2003, 05:35 PM	#5
Elf Girl Lurker Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Lothlórien Posts: 3,419	O, it was for love. Not romantic love, but love as the truest of friends. __________________ There's antimony, arsenic, aluminum, selenium...

09-30-2003, 01:31 AM	#7
hectorberlioz Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008 Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Lost in the Opera House Posts: 9,328	thank you for phrasing it the way i could not, elfgirl. __________________ ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide

09-30-2003, 05:13 PM	#8
Evenstar1400 Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: In the inner depths of my lair. Posts: 421	PJ didnt have time to establish the master-servent bond in fotr, so PJ couldnt have sam calling frodo "master". that make any sense? __________________ Treebeard: Hmm, you look like hobbits, smell like hobbits, feel like hobbits and sound like hobbits. You must be orcs!

10-01-2003, 12:50 PM	#9
hectorberlioz Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008 Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Lost in the Opera House Posts: 9,328	no, it does not. __________________ ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide

10-01-2003, 02:07 PM	#10
Elf Girl Lurker Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Lothlórien Posts: 3,419	Yes, it does. __________________ There's antimony, arsenic, aluminum, selenium...

10-01-2003, 02:31 PM	#11
Spock An enigma in a conundrum Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 6,476	Seeing it portrayed on film in the context of 21st Century moral and social upheaval can certainly give one pause. Without a backround in the books IMO it is very easy to get the wrong impression from the movies. __________________ Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

10-01-2003, 03:41 PM	#12
Elfhelm Marshal of the Eastmark Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 1,412	Which "it"? Affection? __________________ cya

10-01-2003, 03:52 PM	#13
Jedi X Hobbit Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Behind the East Wind Posts: 22	I thought the books portrayed a much more loving Samwise. The movie actor did a good job, I thought, of conveying the sense of 'philadelphia' with what little background the movie could provide and the absence of extensive narrative given in the books. All in all, though; I did not find a feeling of 'overlove' in the movies. __________________ That which was is that which will be; and that which is done is that which will be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

10-02-2003, 12:37 AM	#14
hectorberlioz Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008 Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Lost in the Opera House Posts: 9,328	sam is not supposed to be more loving! to trash with the phelidelphia idea. sam should not be more loving. my name is sam and my friends (hardly friends anymore) take to calling me 'frodo's lover'. that is not why i started this thread though. __________________ ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide

10-02-2003, 11:50 AM	#16
Sween im quite stupid Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Cockermouth Posts: 2,058	lol this thread is so stupid. As is the idea that they way sam is in the movie is a bit homosexual cos thats what you are all scared to say. A lot of people seem to think that Frodo and Sam are gay boys which is just stupid. Sam is the truest of friends you could hope for and Frodo well Frdo needs a good friend doesnt he __________________ Yeah god hes ok but i would rather be judged by a sheep than that idiot

10-02-2003, 01:35 PM	#17
samwiselvr2008 Elf Lord Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Hobbiton Posts: 739	I think Sam was way more loveing in the books then in the movie, if you read through, it's alot more loving in the books, probally because PJ can't show on a screen what can be shown through the books. __________________ Jesus loves you! Movie vewing count from the theater: Return of the King:9 Two Towers: 11 Fellowship: 13 FRODO LIVES!

10-02-2003, 01:40 PM	#18
Rosie Gamgee The Lovely Hobbit-Lass Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Bounded in a nut-shell Posts: 1,593	Actually, in reply to the 'Master' vs. 'Frodo' deal, I think that Sam in the movies starts calling Frodo 'Master Frodo' and 'Mr. Frodo' a whole lot more in TTT than in the first film. Maybe that's just me. Sam and Frodo are not gay! They are simply very good friends. Sam just cares very much for Frodo, and why not? We don't see too many life-long friendships like that anymore, but that is no reason to pick on them. And about the kissing in the books, I don't ever remember any lip-kissing. It just says 'kissed' as far as I remember. And if I went on a Quest like the one Frodo and Sam went on, the one person that went with me, although of inferior status, would quite quickly become my best friend. I should think that I would give her a peck on the cheek before leaving for Valinor. p.s. It's SNOWING here!!! I cannnot believe it is snowing. We hates snow! We hates it forever! __________________ It's New Years Day, just like the day before; Same old skies of grey, same empty bottles on the floor. Another year's gone by, and I was thinking once again, How can I take this losing hand and somehow win? Just give me One Good Year To get my feet back on the ground. I've been chasing grace; Grace ain't so easily found One bad hand can devil a man, chase him and carry him down. I've got to get out of here, just give me One Good Year!

10-02-2003, 03:58 PM	#19
Elfhelm Marshal of the Eastmark Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 1,412	Sam is my favorite character. One of the main reasons I like him so much is that he has no artifice. If he doesn't like you, he doesn't pretend to be your pal. If he loves you, he is not afraid to show it - except that he's shy concerning Rosie Cotton. But overcoming his shyness is one of the things he has to learn. Saying his feelings for Rosie was harder than climbing Mount Doom, but in the end he did it. Yes, it was easier to show his love for his comrades than his desire for his true love. But aside from that, he wears no mask and I just love him! __________________ cya

10-02-2003, 04:15 PM	#20
The Gaffer Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: In me taters Posts: 3,288	I'm with you, Elfhelm. Sam is the emotional touchstone of the whole book. It's a sad reflection that audiences can't deal with love between two men without going "fnarr, fnarr". If you're getting stick off your mates because of it, HB, maybe they need to grow up a bit. Homophobia is such a destructive thing, and not just towards gay people; it affects us all. It's one of the most powerful themes of LOTR, and hats off to PJ and co for not editing it out. I'm trying to think of other films which successfully portray this kind of love without being coy or macho about it but can't come up with any. Any ideas?

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