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06-18-2003, 04:24 PM
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The Tall
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Formenos
Posts: 578
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Turgon and the Silmaril
It is interesting that it is Turgon himself who makes the Silmaril fundamental to the defeating of Morgoth. Consider the Following:
In 495 FA, Tuor reaches Gondolin and it is there that he gives Turgon, the message of Ulmo to depart Gondolin and go to Sirion and to the Sea. It was then and there that Ulmo’s purpose was. But because of the pride of Turgon and the beauty of Gondolin, he would not hear Ulmo. From The Shaping of Middle-Earth: The Quenta: 16 QII Quote:
If Turgon had been the wise Elf that Finrod was then, he would have heeded the advice of Ulmo and departed from Gondolin. Then the force of the Valar of the West would have come much sooner, instead of the 545 FA when the war started. That is indeed a difference of 50 years. Obviously, in that Scenario, Turgon would have become the real instrument of Ulmo in the War against Morgoth, but unfortunately for us, he was overcome by his pride, and the sad thing is that Turgon himself knew that the only hope laid on the West. Therefore, making the Silmaril of Beren and Lúthien instrumental in the saving of ME. Remember Eärendil reaches Valinor in 542 FA, but he began his voyages in 534 FA. He is allowed to come to Valinórë because he had the Silmaril that Elwing saved during the raid of the Sons of Fëanor in the Havens of Sirion. Also consider that Idril, the daughter of Turgon didn’t even trust his own father with their plans on the Way of Escape. His own flesh and blood distrusted him.
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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06-19-2003, 02:49 PM
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#2 |
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Mootis per forum
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Interesting thoughts. But we cannot know how would gone things if Turgon had heeded the advice of Ulmo. It's possible that much harm would had been avoided (in Tolkiens world every sin -pride, lust...- seems to bear its own punishment) but i think that the Silmarils would have been fundamental to get the last victory anyway.
The way to defeat Melkor had to begin with the breaking of all bonds that united elves (and the Eruini in general) to him and the oath of the Noldor was one of those bonds. When Earendil carries the Silmaril to Aman he (as the one who could claim to represent all the Eruini) is finally breaking that bond.
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Do not be hasty. That is my motto. Now we'll have a drink and go to the Entmoot. |
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06-19-2003, 05:22 PM
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#3 | |
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Greatest Elven woman of Aman
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7
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Quote:
As a reader I'm thankful that Turgon didn't leave his city on Ulmo's advice. If he had done so, the story wouldn't be so great.
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--Life is hard, and then we die. |
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06-20-2003, 01:18 AM
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#4 |
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The Tall
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Formenos
Posts: 578
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The year is 495 FA. Elwing reached the mouths of Sirion in 510 FA. If Turgon had reached Sirion in 496 FA, could they have waited for 14 years for the arrival of the Silmaril?
Would Maedhros had assaulted the remants of Doriath with Turgon in Sirion in 505 FA? It makes me wonder.
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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06-20-2003, 02:17 AM
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#5 |
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Alasailon
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: college
Posts: 861
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I don't understand if you are saying that Earendil was only allowed to make the voyage to the West because he bore the Silmaril. It seems to me that it would be his fate anyway Silmaril or no. But then if Earendil didn't have the Silmaril, we would have to take into account who would be carrying it and what might befall that bearer in the meantime. If the sons of Feanor had captured it, I would think either one of these two things would happen; Maedhros will try to rally the Elves together immediately but fail because nobody would trust him, or all Elves would agree to gather for an assault, all at the same time as Earendil reaches Valinor and entreats the Valar to wage war.
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"and then this hobbit was walking, and then this elf jumped out of a bush and totally flipped out on him while wailing on his guitar." "Anglorfin was tall and straight; his hair was of shining gold, his face fair and young and fearless and full of anger; his eyes were bright and keen, and his voice like music; on his brow sat wisdom, and in his hand was great skill." |
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06-20-2003, 07:43 PM
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#6 | |
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The Tall
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Formenos
Posts: 578
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Quote:
He had made previous attempts to reach the west, yet he failed in all of them, except the one in which Elwing bore to him the Silmaril.
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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06-21-2003, 02:52 AM
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#7 |
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Greatest Elven woman of Aman
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7
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What I don't understand is why Ulmo should send word to Turgon advicing him to send messengers to Valinórë, when he must know that they've already tried this several times in vain.
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--Life is hard, and then we die. |
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06-21-2003, 05:26 AM
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#8 |
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Mootis per forum
Administrator
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Good question, Artanis. Must think a bit about it...
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Do not be hasty. That is my motto. Now we'll have a drink and go to the Entmoot. |
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06-21-2003, 09:54 AM
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#9 | |
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The Tall
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Formenos
Posts: 578
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Quote:
__________________
“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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06-21-2003, 12:43 PM
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#10 | |
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Greatest Elven woman of Aman
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7
Posts: 4,285
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At least in The Fall of Gondolin it seems like he meant sending messengers:
Quote:
And why is Ulmo so sure of himself, that he can promise the people of Gondolin to turn the hearts of the Valar if they stand up to Morgoth?
__________________
--Life is hard, and then we die. |
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06-21-2003, 01:07 PM
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#11 | |
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The Tall
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Formenos
Posts: 578
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Quote:
__________________
“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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06-21-2003, 02:22 PM
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#12 | |
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Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
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Quote:
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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06-21-2003, 03:01 PM
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#13 | |
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Greatest Elven woman of Aman
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7
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Sorry, I should have given the full quote:
Quote:
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--Life is hard, and then we die. |
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06-22-2003, 10:49 AM
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#14 |
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Mootis per forum
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Ulmo may have expected that travelling to Valinor to seek the aid of the Valar would have been seen by the rest of the them as a plead of pardon.
The strangement of the Noldor from the Valar was due to the pride of the Noldor that made them refuse the pardon of the Valar. I think that Ulmo was a bit wrong. He was too kind hearted and loved elves too much. So he, perhaps, was prone to forget the offence if only he had a little proof that Elves were finally disposed to accept the mastery of the Valar (traveling through perils to seek their aid). But, i think that the rest of the Valar would ask for a full repentance and that should include the mending of the fault (giving back the Silmarilli).
__________________
Do not be hasty. That is my motto. Now we'll have a drink and go to the Entmoot. |
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06-23-2003, 12:17 AM
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#15 | |
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The Tall
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Formenos
Posts: 578
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Quote:
__________________
“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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