Dying for Colored Rags

[afro-elf]

A segement from Territories by Rush


Better the pride that resides
In a citizen of the world
Than the pride that divides
When a colorful rag is unfurled

[Khamûl]

From Time by Hootie and the Blowfish

Time, I don't understand
Children killing in the street
Dying for the color of a rag
Time, hey there red and blue
Wash them in the ocean, make them clean,
Maybe their mothers won't cry tonight


I guess this is a thread about gangs, right afro-elf?

[afro-elf]

I guess this is a thread about gangs, right afro-elf?

Actually, it was about Nationalism.

[Khamûl]

Oh, ok. When I read the title, those Hootie lyrics were the first thing that came to mind. Carry on about nationalism.

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

I have this strange reaction to the word "nationalism..." a sort shudder...must be all the negative associations that come with it. How true, and sad, those words you posted, Afro-elf...

[jerseydevil]

I see nothing wrong with nationalism or being proud of your country. The difference is how people use it. Nationalism of Germany was evil under Hitler, however I do not have any negative connotations of the word. Unlike military nationalistic ferver, such as in the former Soviet Union, China, North Korea, we do not put on military parades.

I will unfurl my American flag and stand tall at being an American. People outside America may be turned off by America's patriotism - but that's not my problem. They have no say in whether I unfurl the flag or not.

I do not view the rest of the world as being evil or beneath America. I question anyone if they are not proud of their country and nationality. Why live there then? Everyone should be nationalistic (not in the Hitler sense). If you're not proud of your country - then who else will be. If you don't look after it's interests - who do you think will?

I am nationalistic toward NJ - the welfare of NJ comes before the United States in my view. We have state rights for this very purpose. Our Senators and Representatives represent the interests of New Jersey to the federal government (at least they're supposed to). They're not working for the interests of NY or California - they're working for MY interests - and those lie with New Jersey.

The Federal Government on the other hand represents my interests to the world community. Sometimes the US interests come in conflict with other countries interests - but that is the way life is. The world can not expect us or any other country to go against it's self interests.

4th of July is coming up and it is a patriotic time. Not as patriotic as I would like - most people seem to think of it as a time for picnics, drinking and fireworks - instead of the time we declared our independence. It wouldn't take too much if on this day people would read the Declaration of Independence.

In New Jersey we have tons of reenactments of Revolutionary Battles. We are having the 225th anniversary of the Battle of Monmouth which took place about a half hour from me. I've heard some people from outside the US say this is disgusting that Americans reenacts these battles. It's not just the reenactment of the battles - but the way of life. It's a way of learning about the history. We have reenactments for many many things - as I am sure many countries reenact their history as a way of teaching it.

I know I went on a tangent on the last part - but basically to all the people that have a problem with America's pride and so called nationalism - get over it. The old European countries were a thousand times worse than America ever has been.

[Baby-K]

The difference is how people use it. Nationalism of Germany was evil under Hitler, however I do not have any negative connotations of the word.

I don't think you can say Nationalism of Germany was evil under Hitler. Keep in mind that not all Germans followed the doctrine of Nazism. If you had said Hitler's brand of fanatic nationalism was evil I'd agree.

Unlike military nationalistic ferver, such as in the former Soviet Union, China, North Korea

And not forgetting Brittain, who was the largest single international 'land owner' ever, 'cept we do not mention them in the same circles as the above eh, 'cos they're not viewed as 'evil' communist states bent on the destruction of democracy

we do not put on military parades.

Hey JD, yer pants are on fire! Of course you put on millitary parades, what about 4th of July parades (I've seen some on TV) or presidential processions etc? Or commemorative parades for WWI & WWII veterans? Or don't those count?

I will unfurl my American flag and stand tall at being an American. People outside America may be turned off by America's patriotism - but that's not my problem. They have no say in whether I unfurl the flag or not.

It's a pretty flag, unfurl it I say

psssst - I don't think anyone was questioning yer right to do so

I question anyone if they are not proud of their country and nationality

But JD ye question me regardless!

(Some people question WHY and HOW I could feel any pride at being South African )

I know I went on a tangent on the last part - but basically to all the people that have a problem with America's pride and so called nationalism - get over it. The old European countries were a thousand times worse than America ever has been.

No worries - yer tangents give the rest of us summin to nitpick at

(btw - yer defending summin no-one has questioned yet! )

[Sheeana]

Jersey Devil
I question anyone if they are not proud of their country and nationality

Why? It's just a piece of rock. I just happened to be born in New Zealand because some random events lead to my creation. I don't see how one person being born on one piece of rock as opposed to another means anything. I don't personally see that nationalism is all that important. It's funny because the continents have changed so much over time, and will continue to change.

[Coney]

Originally posted by Sheeana
Why? It's just a piece of rock. I just happened to be born in New Zealand because some random events lead to my creation. I don't see how one person being born on one piece of rock as opposed to another means anything. I don't personally see that nationalism is all that important. It's funny because the continents have changed so much over time, and will continue to change.

Exactly. I love England, the culture, history, society etc....

But if a better option turned up..........I'd pack my bags and emmigrate in an instant, I certainly don't intend to live here for my whole life.

[Elf Girl]

A piece on flags done by my mother for the newspaper:

Americans have largely ignored Flag Day in recent decades. Maybe this year a heightened sense of patriotism will bring a change in the holiday's fortunes. But a little flag can be a dangerous thing. We all know the flag means different things to different people, but why? How can something so ubiquitous also be so ambiguous?

This year, our country marched to war in foreign lands, and flags blossom like spring bulbs in every nook and cranny of our public space. In my peace group, which has been holding a weekly vigil for over a year, the flags are creating controversy.

I admit that I started it. One week I appeared at the vigil flaunting a beautiful new U.N. flag. I thought it expressed precisely what I wanted to say. The next week Hal wanted to bring a long pole flying the U.N. flag, with the U.S. flag beneath it, and the Massachusetts flag below that. Like me, he felt it expressed precisely what he wanted to say.

Soon the flags were a major topic of discussion. "If we're going to fly anything," said one member, "it should be only the Stars and Stripes. We don't want to be misunderstood." And the argument was off and running.

My strongest associations with the flag date from my teenage years. As a young child, of course, I had recited the Pledge of Allegiance in class. I can even remember pestering my parents to buy a flag and display it.

But the late sixties brought a sea change in our culture and in my heart. The flag began to look different to me. One day in high school I found myself before an all-school assembly, being installed as treasurer of the student council. As the program began, everyone rose for the Pledge of Allegiance, and suddenly I found that I had no allegiance to pledge. Looking to my left and right, I realized with a shock that I was not alone. Of seven student council officers, four of us had failed to rise from our seats.

We didn't plan this; we hadn't even thought about it. It was simply one result of the psychic wounds inflicted by the Vietnam War, and by the recriminations that flowed from it daily like blood from our body politic.

With this on my mind, I asked Hal about the Stars and Stripes in his flag pantheon. "To me it means comfort, security and safety," he said.

I was dumbfounded. During my political coming-of-age, the flag was a painful wedge, dividing "us" from "them". Who could find safety and security in that?

Hal explained. In 1937 he was living with his family near Shanghai when the Sino-Japanese War broke out. His father, a doctor, worked in the American Hospital. During the Japanese bombardment, Hal's mother hand-stitched an American flag which they laid flat on the hospital roof. Readily visible to the pilots, the flag protected the hospital from the bombers. Japan was not yet willing to confront the Stars and Stripes, or the republic for which it stands. Safety and security through the flag were no empty words for Hal.

Ask someone what the flag means and you will get a very personal answer. One person says, "Freedom." "It stands for 280 million people," says another. It stands for "one nation, under God", says the Pledge, although the "under God" part is under legal attack in California.

But a flag can't say any of those things itself. A flag is mute. It has no words of its own. What we each experience when we see a flag is a ringing of chimes from our youth, an emotional echo from the time when the flag first took on meaning. Like my associations with the Vietnam era, and Hal's wartime recollections, that feeling is unique to each of us, and it has almost nothing to do with the here and now.

Perhaps if we have something to say, we should use our words, as we often tell the children. As a way of communicating, flag-waving doesn't work well. When you see my flag, you'll feel something, but you'll never know if it's what I feel, or if we agree or disagree. Words at least can begin a discussion. Sometimes flag-waving just ends one.

Still, sometimes I long to wrap myself in my favorite flag, because I need that sense of hope, pride, or security. I need it for myself, whether I'm understood or not. I think that motivates all of us flag-wavers, whether we're waving the same one or not. So the next time I see someone carrying a flag, I'll think to myself, "That is your precious flag. Long may it wave."

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sheeana
Why? It's just a piece of rock. I just happened to be born in New Zealand because some random events lead to my creation. I don't see how one person being born on one piece of rock as opposed to another means anything. I don't personally see that nationalism is all that important. It's funny because the continents have changed so much over time, and will continue to change.

Well that's your view of nations - then I suppose you would have no problem living in Norht Korea then.

[Baby-K]

Well that's your view of nations - then I suppose you would have no problem living in Norht Korea then.

You just feel like blowing her up & have no reason while she's safely in NZ, c'mon now - admit it!

Elf Girl - that's a good article BTW - very well spoken

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Baby-K
I don't think you can say Nationalism of Germany was evil under Hitler. Keep in mind that not all Germans followed the doctrine of Nazism. If you had said Hitler's brand of fanatic nationalism was evil I'd agree.

I agree - and that is what i was referring to.

And not forgetting Brittain, who was the largest single international 'land owner' ever, 'cept we do not mention them in the same circles as the above eh, 'cos they're not viewed as 'evil' communist states bent on the destruction of democracy

I agree - although during Edwardian times they were very blatant in their celebration of the conquest of the world.

Hey JD, yer pants are on fire! Of course you put on millitary parades, what about 4th of July parades (I've seen some on TV) or presidential processions etc? Or commemorative parades for WWI & WWII veterans? Or don't those count?

What are they showing in those parades? Are there tanks and military vehicles? As for veterans parades - none of them carry guns. It's parades to honor people who have fought in wars - particularly World War I and II. So - no they don't count as miliatary parades - because they are NOT military parades. You will not see any military goose stepping down the streets of America.

It's a pretty flag, unfurl it I say

psssst - I don't think anyone was questioning yer right to do so

People have in past on Entmoot - so I just wanted to get it out of the way.

But JD ye question me regardless!

Can you tell me when I have questioned you on this?

(Some people question WHY and HOW I could feel any pride at being South African )

They may - but you are the one who lives there - so it's your right to be proud of your country. South Africa isn't just one single event - no more than the US is defined by slavery (which occurred before America was a country and was caused by Europe as weel as Africa).

No worries - yer tangents give the rest of us summin to nitpick at

(btw - yer defending summin no-one has questioned yet! )

Yes I know - but there have been enough threads on entmoot where people have criticised America for it's pride and patriotism - so I figured I'd get it out of the way. It's been all over the Iraq thread and various other threads where people complained about America and it's nationalism. As far as I'm concerned - people should concern themselves with their own countries.

[Baby-K]

You will not see any military goose stepping down the streets of America.

Ye have millitant geese? Sheesh, so when they fly South for Winter is it really spy or training missions?

Beware the birdie doo bombs from America!

People have in past on Entmoot - so I just wanted to get it out of the way.

Oh, OK - I understand (but you do realise that ye'll have to likely restate it - so I'd have ket it for later - now yer opening statement will be challenged to death )

Can you tell me when I have questioned you on this?

Erm, no - 'twas a joke - I meant to imply that you have questioned me in the past (not necessarily on nationalism, on other things - broad spectrum questions), despite the fact that I love my country (meaning to imply that yer words made it seem to me like ye only ask questions of those who don't) - erm argh, forget it, nevermind, crap joke

They may - but you are the one who lives there - so it's your right to be proud of your country. South Africa isn't just one single event - no more than the US is defined by slavery (which occurred before America was a country and was caused by Europe as weel as Africa).

Hehe - we have a national 'slogan' if ye like - "Proudly South African" (mostly placed on products etc made in SA in a bid to boost the economy) - 'tis cool, but it obviously implies more than just having to buy local products. And yeah it's about more than loving a pice of land - it's what that land represents. Hell, my forefathers fought & died to make this country a place where I can live & hope & dream etc - turning my back on it would be like turning my back on my heritage & that which has made me the person I am today. Besides, I can say that I have lived through 2 different political ideologies, have seen the fall of suppression and I'm part of the building of a 'new' nation - damned exiting if you ask me.

As far as I'm concerned - people should concern themselves with their own countries.

You do, of course realise that I am burning to point out how that statement refutes just about everything you said about the American stance of Iraq

[jerseydevil]

Elf Girl -
If a flag has no meaning - then why do people burn it in protest? Why would someone fly the UN flag higher than than the US flag. You know the US flag is not to be dipped to any person, object or other flag (that is why the US flag does NOT get lowered in the olympics during open ceremonies) . You also know that it is not to be flown below any other flag. There is a lot of symbolism tied to the US flag, if anyone cared to look. The UN does not look after the US interests - therefore I have no desire to EVER fly the UN flag. Personally as I have stated - we should leave the UN.

The US Flag represents our country. During the Vietnam War the flag was routinely burned in America. Why? Because people saw it as representing America. During the "pro Saddam marches" recentlly held opposing military action in Iraq - there was no flag burning. Why? Because as the appeasement marchers said - they didn't want to come off as anti-American. They needed to come off as anti-war - not as anti-American. They also didn't want a repeat of the gross way the military personnel were treated during and after the Vietnam War.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Baby-K
Ye have millitant geese? Sheesh, so when they fly South for Winter is it really spy or training missions?

Beware the birdie doo bombs from America!

Lame joke.

Oh, OK - I understand (but you do realise that ye'll have to likely restate it - so I'd have ket it for later - now yer opening statement will be challenged to death )

Why will it be challenged to death? By the same mob squad that challenges everything I say?

Erm, no - 'twas a joke - I meant to imply that you have questioned me in the past (not necessarily on nationalism, on other things - broad spectrum questions), despite the fact that I love my country (meaning to imply that yer words made it seem to me like ye only ask questions of those who don't) - erm argh, forget it, nevermind, crap joke

If there was a joke in there - I don't see it. Nor do I recall ever asking why you are proud of South Africa. If you can e-mail me any points in my e-mail that said to the effect - "why the hell are you proud of South Africa" I'd appreciate it. I believe my last comment to you in regards to your statement "I think I bore people to death by always talking about S/A" (not an exact quote) was that I was interested in what you had to say about South Africa - because I don't know that much about it.

Hehe - we have a national 'slogan' if ye like - "Proudly South African" (mostly placed on products etc made in SA in a bid to boost the economy) - 'tis cool, but it obviously implies more than just having to buy local products.

We have Made in the USA labels on things. Not on all things - most of them I think is just on clothes.

And yeah it's about more than loving a pice of land - it's what that land represents. Hell, my forefathers fought & died to make this country a place where I can live & hope & dream etc - turning my back on it would be like turning my back on my heritage & that which has made me the person I am today.

Then people would understand what American patriotism is all about. America fought to overthrow a dictator in this country - King George III. We fought for our independence and our patriotism and sense of being stem froms that.

You do, of course realise that I am burning to point out how that statement refutes just about everything you said about the American stance of Iraq

Iraq did concern us. The whole middle east concerns us at this point. While the world waits and waits like they did with Hitler - we have finally decided to take a stand - instead of pussy footing arond about the problems. It's about time too. So - no - it doesn't refute all my statements.

[Baby-K]

If a flag has no meaning - then why do people burn it in protest?

Flags represent the 'colours' of countries - which is why each has it's own, just like sportsteams. People burn it in protest to indicate who they are pissed of at & because it is the only readily available symbol of that country (besides - you can commit an act of 'terrorism' against a nation without even harming anyone, I mean in the US it's against the law for the flag to even touch the ground)

Why would someone fly the UN flag higher than than the US flag

To indicate that the UN, is an elected governing body FOR THE WORLD & that the US makes up a part of it & that Massachusetts is part of the US (hierarchy of power if you will).

The UN does not look after the US interests - therefore I have no desire to EVER fly the UN flag. Personally as I have stated - we should leave the UN.

How do they not look after US interest? Is the US not part of this world now? Or is the US so all powerful that they will not be challenged?

OK, well bye-bye America, nice knowing ye - send us a postcard from space (well, you are planning on flying yer continent off into the stars right?)

Because people saw it as representing America

I thought it was because they saw it as representative of an oppressive government and NOT as representative of ALL American people

They needed to come off as anti-war - not as anti-American. They also didn't want a repeat of the gross way the military personnel were treated during and after the Vietnam War.

The gross way they were treated by their own people? Or by the Vietnamese?

anti-American

Ye know, sorry to say JD, but some words (like alice bands) do go out of fashion

[Baby-K]

Why will it be challenged to death? By the same mob squad that challenges everything I say?

Ye know, if you're in a bad mood or whatever don't take it out on me.

If there was a joke in there - I don't see it. Nor do I recall ever asking why you were proud of South Africa. If you can e-mail me any points in my e-mail that said to the effect - "why the hell are you proud of South Africa" I'd appreciate it. I believe my last comment to you in an e-mail was that I was interested what you had to say about South Africa - because I don't know that much about it.

Which was obvious from the start, hence the attempted explanation & why I said it was a crap joke. BTW - I replied to your e-mail & said that I'd send you some stuff. I was also not referring to your e-mail, but to the comments here (this is gonna go around in circles which I just do not care to do).

Oh & I didn't mean to imply that you asked about SA for any other reason that interest.

We have Made in the USA labels on things. Not on all things - most of them I think is just on clothes

Good for you - it wasn't exactly what I was getting at, but yeah anyway.

Then people would understand what American patriotism is all about. America fought to overthrow a dictator in this country - King George III. We fought for our independence and our patriotism and sense of being stem froms that.

No - it's what YOU'RE about, last time I checked the US was a country not a single man in New Jersey.

Iraq did concern us. The whole middle east concerns us at this point. While the world waits and waits like they did with Hitler - we have finally decided to take a stand - instead of pussy footing arond about the problems. It's about time too. So - no - it doesn't refute all my statements.

You said "concern themselves with their own countries" does America own Iraq now?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Baby-K
Flags represent the 'colours' of countries - which is why each has it's own, just like sportsteams. People burn it in protest to indicate who they are pissed of at & because it is the only readily available symbol of that country (besides - you can commit an act of 'terrorism' against a nation without even harming anyone, I mean in the US it's against the law for the flag to even touch the ground)

Where did you hear it's against the law for the flag to touch the ground? It's a sign of disrespect and it goes agaiinst the code of honor written for the flag - but it is NOT against the law. it's not even against the law to burn the flag. There have been attempts to add a Constitutional Amendment that would "outlaw" flag burning which I am against. I think people should be allowed to burn the American flag if they want. It's part of free speech. I ma disagree with doing it - but I also feel that a person has a right to. So you are sort of ignorant on the laws governing the flag. There are NO laws other than a code of how the flag should be flown.

To indicate that the UN, is an elected governing body FOR THE WORLD & that the US makes up a part of it & that Massachusetts is part of the US (hierarchy of power if you will).

No it's not. The US has not relenquished it's rights to the UN body. The UN body is a series of treaties - that is all. The US can leave any time it wants. It's not a GOVERNOING body of the world. It's a debating society.

How do they not look after US interest? Is the US not part of this world now? Or is the US so all powerful that they will not be challenged?

They don't look after the US interest because they're not the US. Only the US can look after our interests.

OK, well bye-bye America, nice knowing ye - send us a postcard from space (well, you are planning on flying yer continent off into the stars right?)

How long do you think the UN would survive without the US?

I thought it was because they saw it as representative of an oppressive government and NOT as representative of ALL American people

Oppressive government? Where did you pull that out of? How was the US oppressive? I don't think you really know too much about American history, even the Vietnam Era.

The gross way they were treated by their own people? Or by the Vietnamese?

By the so called peace marchers of the 60's.

Ye know, sorry to say JD, but some words (like alice bands) do go out of fashion

Yeah - well a rose by any other name would smell as sweet. A person or country can rename their attitude and they can still be anti-American.

[Baby-K]

JD, you are taking everything I say as a personal attack, which I certainly do not intend it to be and in return you are being very aggressive - I don't appreciate that, so I will refrain from commenting again.