catholics

gimli7410 · 06-09-2003, 08:22 PM

i didnt know where to put this but why are lots of catholics against harry potter for having wizards?? i mean there is a wizard in lotr and there has never been controversy about that even with the movies? im catholic but i could care less if they think it is black magic or even if it is

i also mean all people in general not just catholics

***azalea*** · 06-09-2003, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gimli7410
i didnt know where to put this but why are lots of catholics against harry potter ...

The Harry Potter forum seems like a more logical choice. Moving.

Gwaimir Windgem · 06-09-2003, 09:40 PM

Well, there are certainly some major differences between the Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter. The biggest one I can think of is that Gandalf is a divine being, an angel, sent by God's earthly representative, and stewards of Middle-earth, to unite the Free Peoples against evil. An interesting article on this can be found here.

I have the bad feeling that the mods will put this in the Harry Potter forum...

Then I'll almost definitely not follow the discussion

gimli7410 · 06-09-2003, 09:50 PM

yea its in the HP forum.

i tired to focus more on books that include wizards and things related to harry potter

hey GW why dont you like HP

Gwaimir Windgem · 06-09-2003, 10:06 PM

I don't know. The whole concept just seems a bit "silly" to me. Plus, it seemed to me to be something of one of those "kids against grownups" things, which I never was fond of.

Don't worry, I don't think it's the work of the devil.

Finrod Felagund · 06-10-2003, 11:45 AM

Well, I'm not Catholic, but there is a woman in my church who not only has a problem with HP, but LotR as well! Of course, I'm pretty sure she's never read it.

Gwaimir Windgem · 06-10-2003, 11:48 AM

Now, having a problem with LOTR is not just paranoid, but completely stupid.

Arien the Maia · 06-10-2003, 11:55 AM

The Church doesn't condemn Harry Potter....it's just an entertaining book (for some). I'm sure that it's more of an individual's choice to accpet or reject it....it's just one of those things that people can't take too seriously. I do think, however, that it sould be reserved for older children becuse the whole "magic" thing is very tempting for younger children...they start to belive it because it is so "cool" or whatnot. I like the books...like I said they are very entertaining

Gwaimir Windgem · 06-10-2003, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
I do think, however, that it sould be reserved for older children becuse the whole "magic" thing is very tempting for younger children...

I quite agree.

sun-star · 06-10-2003, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gimli7410
i didnt know where to put this but why are lots of catholics against harry potter for having wizards?? i mean there is a wizard in lotr and there has never been controversy about that even with the movies? im catholic but i could care less if they think it is black magic or even if it is i also mean all people in general not just catholics

I believe that most criticism has not come from Catholics but from (having problems with classification here) other fundamentalist? Christian groups, especially in the US. I think some Catholic bishops have actually praised the Harry Potter series. Although I am an HP fan, I can kind of see the critics' point - that presenting magic as a fun thing to do can be a harmful influence on children.

And actually, there has been criticism of LOTR from similar quarters. This site sums up such views, which you might find interesting (although it does make me feel slightly sick, especially the section on CS Lewis and Tolkien

)

Harry Potter

***Fat middle*** · 06-10-2003, 04:47 PM

yep, i'm also a catholic and i haven't heard any chriticism from any catholic against HP.

i heard (about two years ago or so) something about a german town where the priest "forbid" the books, but it was not a catholic priest, i think he was lutheran.

Gwaimir Windgem · 06-11-2003, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sun-star
(although it does make me feel slightly sick, especially the section on CS Lewis and Tolkien )

Yes, their anti-fiction bit is rather ridiculous. I mean, a large portion of the teachings of Christ were parables!

galadriel · 06-13-2003, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fat middle
i heard (about two years ago or so) something about a german town where the priest "forbid" the books, but it was not a catholic priest, i think he was lutheran.

Bah! You're making me ashamed to be a Lutheran. Oh well. You'll find some loonies in every denomination.

I'm a great fan of the Harry Potter books. Even if a little kid did take them a little too seriously, it's up to the parents to explain that Harry Potter magic and, say, Wiccanism is not the same thing. (And they're not... Harry Potter just encapsulates all of the bizarre little notions that kids have about wizardry to begin with, which is all based on Merlin and such.) Of course, when I was a kid, I didn't know anything about "real" witchcraft. If I had read Harry Potter then, I would have never mistaken the two.

As for LotR being anti-Christian.... Tolkien would have a conniption fit if he discovered that his books, which he described as inherently Christian, are being misinterpreted so drastically. Some people are just really stupid.

Laurus Nobilis · 06-13-2003, 11:31 AM

Actually, there are fundamentalists from a lot of Christian branches that think Harry Poter is "evil"- and not all of us Catholics think it's the work of the devil!

In fact, a couple of months ago the Vatican said that Harry Potter books were OK because

1)There's nothing wrong with reading about magic.
2)The morals of the books are OK- the good guys win because of their virtues and effort, not because they can perform magic.

I guess some people relate magic with Wicca as a religion, but this books have nothing to do with it. (And even if they did, why ban them?)

What I wonder is how can people think CS Lewis wrote anti-Christian books when the Chronicles of Narnia are full of Christian references.

Arien the Maia · 06-13-2003, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Laurus Nobilis
Actually, there are fundamentalists from a lot of Christian branches that think Harry Poter is "evil"- and not all of us Catholics think it's the work of the devil!

In fact, a couple of months ago the Vatican said that Harry Potter books were OK because

1)There's nothing wrong with reading about magic.
2)The morals of the books are OK- the good guys win because of their virtues and effort, not because they can perform magic.

I guess some people relate magic with Wicca as a religion, but this books have nothing to do with it. (And even if they did, why ban them?)

What I wonder is how can people think CS Lewis wrote anti-Christian books when the Chronicles of Narnia are full of Christian references.

right on!!!

Elf Girl · 06-13-2003, 02:30 PM

I did go through a phase of being a HP witch. It was fun. ('No unforgivable curses in the house!' say my parents.)

galadriel · 06-13-2003, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elf Girl
I did go through a phase of being a HP witch. It was fun. ('No unforgivable curses in the house!' say my parents.)

Ha, you think that's weird.... when I was in elementary school, my friends and I played this ongoing game at recess called "Witches". We pretended we were witches and black cats and such, and made potions out of sand and skunkweed. Oh, the fond memories. I think all of this had something to do with my hometown's proximity to Salem, Mass.

At the time, however, I had no idea that *real* witches really existed, or what witchcraft was. I had just watched a lot of silly movies and heard scary stories at halloween. It had absolutely nothing to do with Wicca, Satanism, or what have you. And it was fun!

Gwaimir Windgem · 06-14-2003, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by galadriel
As for LotR being anti-Christian.... Tolkien would have a conniption fit if he discovered that his books, which he described as inherently Christian, are being misinterpreted so drastically. Some people are just really stupid.

Correction. Inherently Catholic, not generally Christian.

Quote:

I guess some people relate magic with Wicca

Yes, I've noticed that too. And it's not by any means like Wiccans are the only Magicians (or whatever the general term would be

) out there. Probably the most prominent next to Wicca would be High Magic, or Ritual or Ceremonial Magic, which I believe would include Freemasons, Order of the Golden Dawn, etc. There are also a number of other magic-practicing religions/traditions.

Tanoliel · 06-23-2003, 01:46 AM

First of all, I would like to point out that being a Wiccan and being a Satanist are two incredibly different things. Satanism acknowledges Satan, for one thing, which is part of Christian theology--they're still working in Christian theology, just upside down. Wiccanism has utterly nothing at all to do with Christianity; and, moreover, isn't evil in any way. One of the precepts, if not the first, of paganism is do what you will if it won't harm others.

(Sorry if that sounded angry...I don't mean it that way.)

People saying that LotR and Narnia are anti Christian is just plain ridiculous...and that's really all that can be said. I mean, all the evidence is against them...cripes.

As for Harry Potter...I can see why people would freak out. (I think it's ridiculous that they DO, but I can sort of see why.) However, I think one is only allowed to ban/freak out about/forbid kids to read a book after one has actually read the thing onself. Honestly.

Harry Potter isn't teaching "black" magic--it's a fantasy with kids learning spells. Which don't work.

Really...I've tried. Maybe I'm a Muggle or something.

tano

Gwaimir Windgem · 06-23-2003, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tanoliel
Satanism acknowledges Satan, for one thing, which is part of Christian theology--they're still working in Christian theology, just upside down.

Actually, Satanists would disagree. The majority of Satanists don't actually deal with the Christian Satan, but an archetype from mythology, the Divine Rebel, of which Satan is a part; from my experience, they seem to use the name of this particular Rebel for shock value. Indeed, many Satanists are in fact atheists. Obviously, there are those who deal with the Christian Satan, but as one Satanist said, "Satanists consider them to be Christians; Christians (and everyone else) consider them to be Satanists."

Quote:

Wiccanism has utterly nothing at all to do with Christianity; and, moreover, isn't evil in any way. One of the precepts, if not the first, of paganism is do what you will if it won't harm others.

Minor note; isn't the term Wicca, not Wiccanism? And also, I've read in some Wiccan sources where it mentioned that Gardner was actually influenced by ritualistic parts of Christianity, among other things. Also, Wicca is not technically Paganism, but a considerably newer Earth-based religion. And Satanists (at least the non-Christian) would not consider themselves evil; then again, I gather that they don't believe in good and evil. The tenets of their faith(s) are to me, if not strictly evil, certainly not something that I could agree with.

Quote:

(Sorry if that sounded angry...I don't mean it that way.)

Don't worry, it didn't.

To me, at any rate.

Quote:

People saying that LotR and Narnia are anti Christian is just plain ridiculous...and that's really all that can be said. I mean, all the evidence is against them...cripes.

Quite so.

Quote:

However, I think one is only allowed to ban/freak out about/forbid kids to read a book after one has actually read the thing onself. Honestly.

Definitely agree on that.

Quote:

Harry Potter isn't teaching "black" magic

In all probability.

06-09-2003, 08:22 PM	#1
gimli7410 the dumb stoner canuck Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: canada Posts: 2,542	catholics i didnt know where to put this but why are lots of catholics against harry potter for having wizards?? i mean there is a wizard in lotr and there has never been controversy about that even with the movies? im catholic but i could care less if they think it is black magic or even if it is i also mean all people in general not just catholics __________________ -"Down with the system"-Serj tankian of system of a down -“Humans have been on the earth for millions of years, yet we don’t believe man began thinking until he started building walls. And what good have these walls ever done us?”-Serj tankian of soad -"stupid people do stupid things"-Serj tankian of soad "Trying is the first step to failure" Homer Simpson "It isn't going to be easy"-jerseydevil "only the good die young" I AM CANADIAN If the people lead, the leaders will follow. Last edited by gimli7410 : 06-09-2003 at 08:24 PM.

06-09-2003, 09:40 PM	#3
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	Well, there are certainly some major differences between the Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter. The biggest one I can think of is that Gandalf is a divine being, an angel, sent by God's earthly representative, and stewards of Middle-earth, to unite the Free Peoples against evil. An interesting article on this can be found here. I have the bad feeling that the mods will put this in the Harry Potter forum... Then I'll almost definitely not follow the discussion __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

06-09-2003, 09:50 PM	#4
gimli7410 the dumb stoner canuck Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: canada Posts: 2,542	yea its in the HP forum. i tired to focus more on books that include wizards and things related to harry potter hey GW why dont you like HP __________________ -"Down with the system"-Serj tankian of system of a down -“Humans have been on the earth for millions of years, yet we don’t believe man began thinking until he started building walls. And what good have these walls ever done us?”-Serj tankian of soad -"stupid people do stupid things"-Serj tankian of soad "Trying is the first step to failure" Homer Simpson "It isn't going to be easy"-jerseydevil "only the good die young" I AM CANADIAN If the people lead, the leaders will follow.

06-09-2003, 10:06 PM	#5
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	I don't know. The whole concept just seems a bit "silly" to me. Plus, it seemed to me to be something of one of those "kids against grownups" things, which I never was fond of. Don't worry, I don't think it's the work of the devil. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

06-10-2003, 11:45 AM	#6
Finrod Felagund King of Nargothrond Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Canada! eh? Posts: 2,002	Well, I'm not Catholic, but there is a woman in my church who not only has a problem with HP, but LotR as well! Of course, I'm pretty sure she's never read it. __________________ "THE EAGLES ARE COMING, THE EAGLES ARE COMING......AND A MOTH!!!!!"

06-10-2003, 11:48 AM	#7
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	Now, having a problem with LOTR is not just paranoid, but completely stupid. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

06-10-2003, 11:55 AM	#8
Arien the Maia Fëanáro's Fire Mistress Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Indiana, USA Posts: 1,423	The Church doesn't condemn Harry Potter....it's just an entertaining book (for some). I'm sure that it's more of an individual's choice to accpet or reject it....it's just one of those things that people can't take too seriously. I do think, however, that it sould be reserved for older children becuse the whole "magic" thing is very tempting for younger children...they start to belive it because it is so "cool" or whatnot. I like the books...like I said they are very entertaining

06-10-2003, 04:47 PM	#11
*Fat middle* Mootis per forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Spain Posts: 61,439	yep, i'm also a catholic and i haven't heard any chriticism from any catholic against HP. i heard (about two years ago or so) something about a german town where the priest "forbid" the books, but it was not a catholic priest, i think he was lutheran. __________________ Do not be hasty. That is my motto. Now we'll have a drink and go to the Entmoot.

06-13-2003, 11:31 AM	#14
Laurus Nobilis Enting Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina Posts: 73	Actually, there are fundamentalists from a lot of Christian branches that think Harry Poter is "evil"- and not all of us Catholics think it's the work of the devil! In fact, a couple of months ago the Vatican said that Harry Potter books were OK because 1)There's nothing wrong with reading about magic. 2)The morals of the books are OK- the good guys win because of their virtues and effort, not because they can perform magic. I guess some people relate magic with Wicca as a religion, but this books have nothing to do with it. (And even if they did, why ban them?) What I wonder is how can people think CS Lewis wrote anti-Christian books when the Chronicles of Narnia are full of Christian references. __________________ "...So the essential Quest started at once. But I met a lot of things on the way that astonished me. Tom Bombadil I knew already; but I had never been to Bree. Strider sitting in the corner at the inn was a shock, and I had no more idea who he was than had Frodo. The Mines of Moria had been a mere name; and of Lothlórien no word had reached my mortal ears till I came there. Far away I knew there were the Horse-lords on the confines of an ancient Kingdom of Men, but Fangorn Forest was an unforeseen adventure." ~ J. R. R. Tolkien

06-13-2003, 02:30 PM	#16
Elf Girl Lurker Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Lothlórien Posts: 3,419	I did go through a phase of being a HP witch. It was fun. ('No unforgivable curses in the house!' say my parents.) __________________ There's antimony, arsenic, aluminum, selenium...

06-23-2003, 01:46 AM	#19
Tanoliel Eccentric Chocolate Crow Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: The Emerald City--Seattle, WA Posts: 1,861	First of all, I would like to point out that being a Wiccan and being a Satanist are two incredibly different things. Satanism acknowledges Satan, for one thing, which is part of Christian theology--they're still working in Christian theology, just upside down. Wiccanism has utterly nothing at all to do with Christianity; and, moreover, isn't evil in any way. One of the precepts, if not the first, of paganism is do what you will if it won't harm others. (Sorry if that sounded angry...I don't mean it that way.) People saying that LotR and Narnia are anti Christian is just plain ridiculous...and that's really all that can be said. I mean, all the evidence is against them...cripes. As for Harry Potter...I can see why people would freak out. (I think it's ridiculous that they DO, but I can sort of see why.) However, I think one is only allowed to ban/freak out about/forbid kids to read a book after one has actually read the thing onself. Honestly. Harry Potter isn't teaching "black" magic--it's a fantasy with kids learning spells. Which don't work. Really...I've tried. Maybe I'm a Muggle or something. tano __________________ Wisdom for Short Attention Spans...Ozy and Millie. It rocks. Food Of The Gods: 3,7-dihydro-3,7-dimethyl-1H-purine-2,6-dione Feed Me.... Another Online Dwelling Place... "All right, I confess. It is my intention to comandeer a ship, pick up a crew in Tortuga, to rape, pillage, plunder and otherwise pilfer my weasely black guts out." -Captain Jack Sparrow "The trouble with unknown enemies is that they are so difficult to identify." -Amelia Peabody Emerson "Most people obey the orders of someone who is pointing a gun at their head." -A.P. Emerson

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