Letting things run there course

[Sween]

What was tolkien trying to get across with his phiolophy of letting things run there course. In lord of the rings he just lets Sam and Frodo get on with it Gandalf refuses to get involved with them he doesnt even make any atempt to find them really.

In the Silmarillion he also has the powers (the Valar) just sit back and watch things unfold. they do have some idea of the futre. Mandos in Morgoths ring says about letting Finwe remarry that history will be better for it ere the end when Earendil comes out of the sea or summet. So they have a good idea of whats going to happen.

Did the Valar know the Two Trees were going to be thrown down? if they have some vision of the futre then they must have some idea of the events inbetween? or do they just know that the world will be allright in the end? I see middle earth history much as a play all pre concived and pre ordained with good guys, bad guys and people who are just unlucky and is there fait in there hands or is there life mearly the fullfilment of there destinty?

Thingol in the end just lets Beren and Luthien marry because he realises that it was ment to be and it was a power beyond him and really is wasnt even to do with Beren and Luthien to be together they were ment to be together thats why Beren came through Melians enchantments etc.

There is also the case of Tuor at the Nirnaeth Arnoediad Hour said to Turgon 'a new star shall arise from us' as of course was the case so in the end allthough he didnt head Tuors messages from Ulmo (whom of all the Valar did try and effect change in Beleriand) he didnt stop. Also by the end of the third age they seemed to reconise theses things quite easily and Elrond came to the conclusion that he had little or no power to stop Arwen and Aragon marring.

So what intrests me is how much did the Valar know and how much did they infact effect change in the world and should they or taken over a bit more and saved a lot of hurt to the world?

[Ruinel]

Perhaps it is also a matter of destiny and fate. Had Gollum NOT followed Frodo and Sam to the Mordor, would the One Ring have been destroyed. And this was done at the expense of Frodo's finger and great pain to him.

If Gandalf had not fought with the Balrog, he would not have been lost to the Fellowship. However, he was returned to them when they most needed him. Had he not been lost to them in Moria, he might have kept the Fellowship together. Thus either the Ring would be too late or would never have been destroyed. Or, the allies against Sauron would not have been ready for Sauron's attack.

Thingol tried to prevent Luthien and Beren from marrying. He did everything he could, even making his own daughter a prisoner. When Beren returns without his hand and tells Thingol that the Silmaril is in his hand and those are in the belly of Carcharoth it shames Thingol and he sees the love Beren and Luthien have for each other. At that point he has a great respect for Beren and allows the wedding. He may also realize, as you say, that their marriage is destined and he has no power to stop it.

As for Elrond stopping Arwen and Aragorn from marrying, no they were destined to be together. However, he did prevent them from marrying right away. And he gave Aragorn the push he needed to be a better man for her. No one wants a slacker son-in-law, no matter how much he may love her.

Do the Valar have the power to see the future? Possibly and probably, based on little bits within Tolkien's writting. However, I think you might also ask: If you know the future, can you change it. And if you change it, what else changes for good or evil? The Valar were very hands off for the most part. I believe this was because they were reluctant to change anything that they had experienced in the music of Eru in the beginning. Recall that the one who changed the music and the fate of Arda, Melkor, was not well liked and considered evil.

[Sister Golden Hair]

So what intrests me is how much did the Valar know and how much did they infact effect change in the world and should they or taken over a bit more and saved a lot of hurt to the world?

It's hard to say just how much the Valar knew. Their forsight, I think may have been more like to the foresight of the Elves, a quick vision of what's to come, but not detailed enough to be sure of everything.

Morgoth had caused so much damage to Arda. The Valar were weary from their labours, and Yavanna placed everything in a deep sleep in the hope that what could be preserved would be.

[azalea]

I think Tolkien tried in Arda to mirror the idea of freewill versus predestination, and in the words of Forrest Gump " I think it could be both." I think Tolkien thought so, too, or at least that's what it seems like to me when I read his writings.

To me, the events in ME will always come to one conclusion, but the way to get to that conclusion has infinite possibilities. For instance, your example of Frodo "getting on with it" is a good illustration of that. I think the bottom line there was, in the words of Dr. John (I think?), "If I don't do it, somebody else will." Sauron would be overthrown eventually by the Valar or Iluvatar himself, but at what cost to life on Arda, we can only guess. So by sticking with it, Sam and Frodo help the outcome AND save at least a part of ME "as it was." The characters are given freewill to act upon events as they feel they must. But there is an outcome that perhaps the Valar could sense, if not see clearly, and they know that they need not interfere further, because at this point it's "under control," just not theirs.

So things could have been different with the Trees, or Beren and Luthien, but they weren't because of the way each person, elf or Vala played his part the way he felt he should at the time and no matter how differently ME would have looked as a result, the outcome would be what was meant to be.

This is one of those things that sound good in my head, but don't translate well when I try to get them out of my head and into words.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by azalea
This is one of those things that sound good in my head, but don't translate well when I try to get them out of my head and into words.

I think you've put it down nicely, and I agree with you. Fate rules on the macro level, and free will on the micro level.

[Anglorfin]

In the Sil it says that Illuvatar showed the Ainu a vision of the music that they had made and then watched much of it unfold. He also said that their task would be to go into the Void and make it real. Remember that no matter how hard they tried the actual world never matched up seamlessly with the vision they saw. In the beginning it was mostly the unforseen treacherous acts of Melkor, and then later the little decisions of the Children of Illuvatar. Each choice affected the world one way or another up to the point where the Valar's vision and foresight would be so dimmed because of so many different choices of the Children (if that makes sense).

Also Tolkien could have just emphasized the "go with the flow" mentality because he liked nature and that we should let nature take it's course rather than interfering.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Did the Valar know the Two Trees were going to be thrown down? if they have some vision of the futre then they must have some idea of the events inbetween? or do they just know that the world will be allright in the end? I see middle earth history much as a play all pre concived and pre ordained with good guys, bad guys and people who are just unlucky and is there fait in there hands or is there life mearly the fullfilment of there destinty?

I don't think they did. The impression I always got was that the Valar were not exceptionally foresighted, except for Namo, the Doomsman of Valinor (for if they all knew the future, what good would he be? ) and Manwe, the one who was closest in heart and mind to the Will of Iluvatar. As for their lives being merely the fulfillment of destiny, I think Gandalf said in Shadow of the Past, when Frodo said he wished it needn't have happened in his time: "So do I, and so do all who live to see such times; yet that is not for us to decide. Our task is to spend the time that is given to us wisely." So I don't think they were bound to Destiny. But I do agree with azalea. Ever was the Plan of Eru there, if not visible; like the timeless foundation upon which the house is built. There was "fate" to some degree. But there was also freewill.