If they had returned to the Shire earlier

Lalaith · 05-17-2003, 05:26 AM

Do you remember the part in RotK when Saruman is already in the Shire and has turned it to evil and then he laughs at the hobbits (Merry, Pippin, Sam, Frodo) because they should have returned earlier and not have gone to Rivendell first?
I wonder if it would have changed anything if they went straight to the Shire and had not gone to Rivendell first.

***Jonathan*** · 05-17-2003, 05:43 AM

There is a thread about this topic already:
If Merry and Pippin had returned to the Shire,
even though the thread doesn't deal with Sam and Frodo and what would have happened if they had returned.

Lalaith · 05-17-2003, 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jonathan
There is a thread about this topic already:
If Merry and Pippin had returned to the Shire,
even though the thread doesn't deal with Sam and Frodo and what would have happened if they had returned.

I know and I already replied to that.
But I never got the point why Saruman said to them that they shouldn't have gone to Rivendell. Could they have changed anything?

Sween · 05-17-2003, 09:10 AM

i dont think that bar saving lotho pimple they could of made any more difference to what they had allready made. Plus they needed to see bilbo and sort stuff out about frodo sailing to the west

gimli7410 · 05-17-2003, 12:21 PM

yea otherwise frodo probably couldnt of made it to the grey havens and sam always wanted to see the elves anyways

Lalaith · 05-17-2003, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gimli7410
yea otherwise frodo probably couldnt of made it to the grey havens and sam always wanted to see the elves anyways

Sam already saw the elves ... so that can't be the problem.

gimli7410 · 05-17-2003, 12:35 PM

yea but he could never get enough of the elves. and they were about to leave middle earth forever

Lalaith · 05-17-2003, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gimli7410
yea but he could never get enough of the elves. and they were about to leave middle earth forever

but they could have gone to the Shire first and then to Rivendell ... if they wanted
after a year of journey and pain ... wouldn't go want to go home first and then visit some other place?

***azalea*** · 05-17-2003, 04:20 PM

They didn't know anything was wrong, even Gandalf wasn't aware that anything of that magnitude had occurred. If they HAD gone on back, I wonder if Gandalf would hvae gone with them. If so, I wonder how it would have played out. If not, it would be a similar situation, just not as far gone. They would ahve been able to save Lotho, like Sween said, and would have prevented some of the destruction, but it would have had the same outcome. I wonder if the death of Saruman and Grima would have been different then?

Edit: oh, and I supose the reason they went to Rivendell first is because it was kind of on the way home, and who knew when they'd be venturing all the way out there again? I guess it's the nature of travelling by foot or horseback. Once you got home, you wouldn't want ot go back out for a very long time, especially after the length of time they'd been gone!

gimli7410 · 05-17-2003, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lalaith
but they could have gone to the Shire first and then to Rivendell ... if they wanted
after a year of journey and pain ... wouldn't go want to go home first and then visit some other place?

ummmmmmmmmm i dont know*runs away*

cassiopeia · 05-18-2003, 02:48 AM

I think they stayed at Rivendell for two reasons. One because they wanted a rest from their long journey. The other is because Frodo wanted to see Bilbo again.
I actually have the feeling Gandalf has at least some idea of what was happening in the Shire, but decided that the hobbits had 'grown up' enough by now to deal with it themselves.
To answer Lalaith's orginal question, I don't think the hobbits returning earlier would change the situation too much. Perhaps it have given Saruman less time to settle in, but that doesn't really matter, since the ruffians were already menacing the inhabitants. Another interesting question is: did Wormtongue eat Lotho?

Sween · 05-18-2003, 10:49 AM

i Believe by the fact that Frodo and Sam went past Saurman they could of easily beat him to Bag end. This would be a bad thing for a number of reasons by the time Frodo got to bag end in the book they had taken out the majority of his forces and he didnt have time to lay plans etc! If they had gone stright home the ruffians would of met saurman on the way back and he would of been able to organise them better

Ruinel · 05-19-2003, 12:09 AM

There were other forces at work. It was meant to be this way. Any earlier or later would have been a mistake.

Gandalf knew what was happening, I'm sure of it. Or had a feeling that something was up. But he never revealed this to the Hobbits. As he had said before, there were other forces at work. It was meant that they show up at that particular time. To rouse the other Hobbits, to make their stand and take back the Shire.

***Earniel*** · 05-20-2003, 02:47 PM

I do believe Gandalf knew something was afoot in the Shire. I seem to recall he made a comment to the hobbits that they would find a lot more gates on their way home than before. But I think he judged (and rightly so) that Saruman was but a little treath compared to what they had faced before.

If they had arrived earlier Saruman would have had less chance to get installed in the Shire. he would also have wreaked a lot less damage. But I wonder that if the hobbits had indeed come home earlier, they would have been able to rally the hobbits like they did. The Shire-hobbits would have been less bullied and robbed. They wouldn't have been so easy to rouse then.

***azalea*** · 05-20-2003, 03:18 PM

Ah, interesting, the last two posts. It reminds me of somethng I said elsewhere on Entmoot, that a people values more that which has been more challenging to defend, and it is made the more valuable since they are the ones who did the defending, rather than an outside force.

Ruinel · 05-20-2003, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by azalea
Ah, interesting, the last two posts. It reminds me of somethng I said elsewhere on Entmoot, that a people values more that which has been more challenging to defend, and it is made the more valuable since they are the ones who did the defending, rather than an outside force.

An excellent point!

As well, I think that Eärniel has also hit a home run! Would the returning Hobbits have been able to rally the hometown upon their return if there had been little harm done to them. Hobbits don't seem easy to war and the point she made about Saruman's men doing so much damage probably was the final straw and all that was needed was a match. That was when our heros returned to the Shire and mustering the town's people.

Lalaith · 05-21-2003, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by azalea
They didn't know anything was wrong, even Gandalf wasn't aware that anything of that magnitude had occurred. If they HAD gone on back, I wonder if Gandalf would hvae gone with them. If so, I wonder how it would have played out. If not, it would be a similar situation, just not as far gone. They would ahve been able to save Lotho, like Sween said, and would have prevented some of the destruction, but it would have had the same outcome. I wonder if the death of Saruman and Grima would have been different then?

Edit: oh, and I supose the reason they went to Rivendell first is because it was kind of on the way home, and who knew when they'd be venturing all the way out there again? I guess it's the nature of travelling by foot or horseback. Once you got home, you wouldn't want ot go back out for a very long time, especially after the length of time they'd been gone!

That's a good point. Especially the edit part.
I guess if they had gone back to the shire, they would have wanted to settle down and not again go on journeys.
Although ... wait, didn't Merry and Pippin make some further journeys?

***azalea*** · 05-21-2003, 09:07 PM

Yes, but I'm sure they didn't go anywhere for a while after they got back, and also they were more up to travelling than Frodo, and I think Sam was happy to be a homebody.

Ruinel · 05-22-2003, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by azalea
Yes, but I'm sure they didn't go anywhere for a while after they got back, and also they were more up to travelling than Frodo, and I think Sam was happy to be a homebody.

Of course Sam was happy to be a homebody.

He had seen the Elves, he had his adventure, and now he was back home with the Hobbit he loved, Rosie.

Lalaith · 05-22-2003, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ruinel
Of course Sam was happy to be a homebody. He had seen the Elves, he had his adventure, and now he was back home with the Hobbit he loved, Rosie.

Would agree to that. I think Sam was never the guy for travelling.

05-17-2003, 05:26 AM	#1
Lalaith The Elvish Temptress Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Vienna, Austria Posts: 3,055	If they had returned to the Shire earlier Do you remember the part in RotK when Saruman is already in the Shire and has turned it to evil and then he laughs at the hobbits (Merry, Pippin, Sam, Frodo) because they should have returned earlier and not have gone to Rivendell first? I wonder if it would have changed anything if they went straight to the Shire and had not gone to Rivendell first. __________________ What I am and what I would are as secret as maidenhead.

05-17-2003, 05:43 AM	#2
*Jonathan* Entmoot Attorney-General, Equilibrating the Scales of Justice, Administrator ♎ Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 3,891	There is a thread about this topic already: If Merry and Pippin had returned to the Shire, even though the thread doesn't deal with Sam and Frodo and what would have happened if they had returned. __________________ An unwritten post is a delightful universe of infinite possibilities. Set down one word, however, and it immediately becomes earthbound. Set down one sentence and it’s halfway to being just like every other bloody entry that’s ever been written. ☻ Last edited by Jonathan : 05-17-2003 at 05:45 AM.

05-17-2003, 09:10 AM	#4
Sween im quite stupid Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Cockermouth Posts: 2,058	i dont think that bar saving lotho pimple they could of made any more difference to what they had allready made. Plus they needed to see bilbo and sort stuff out about frodo sailing to the west __________________ Yeah god hes ok but i would rather be judged by a sheep than that idiot

05-17-2003, 12:21 PM	#5
gimli7410 the dumb stoner canuck Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: canada Posts: 2,542	yea otherwise frodo probably couldnt of made it to the grey havens and sam always wanted to see the elves anyways __________________ -"Down with the system"-Serj tankian of system of a down -“Humans have been on the earth for millions of years, yet we don’t believe man began thinking until he started building walls. And what good have these walls ever done us?”-Serj tankian of soad -"stupid people do stupid things"-Serj tankian of soad "Trying is the first step to failure" Homer Simpson "It isn't going to be easy"-jerseydevil "only the good die young" I AM CANADIAN If the people lead, the leaders will follow.

05-17-2003, 12:35 PM	#7
gimli7410 the dumb stoner canuck Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: canada Posts: 2,542	yea but he could never get enough of the elves. and they were about to leave middle earth forever __________________ -"Down with the system"-Serj tankian of system of a down -“Humans have been on the earth for millions of years, yet we don’t believe man began thinking until he started building walls. And what good have these walls ever done us?”-Serj tankian of soad -"stupid people do stupid things"-Serj tankian of soad "Trying is the first step to failure" Homer Simpson "It isn't going to be easy"-jerseydevil "only the good die young" I AM CANADIAN If the people lead, the leaders will follow.

05-17-2003, 04:20 PM	#9
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	They didn't know anything was wrong, even Gandalf wasn't aware that anything of that magnitude had occurred. If they HAD gone on back, I wonder if Gandalf would hvae gone with them. If so, I wonder how it would have played out. If not, it would be a similar situation, just not as far gone. They would ahve been able to save Lotho, like Sween said, and would have prevented some of the destruction, but it would have had the same outcome. I wonder if the death of Saruman and Grima would have been different then? Edit: oh, and I supose the reason they went to Rivendell first is because it was kind of on the way home, and who knew when they'd be venturing all the way out there again? I guess it's the nature of travelling by foot or horseback. Once you got home, you wouldn't want ot go back out for a very long time, especially after the length of time they'd been gone!

05-18-2003, 02:48 AM	#11
cassiopeia Viggoholic Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 1,749	I think they stayed at Rivendell for two reasons. One because they wanted a rest from their long journey. The other is because Frodo wanted to see Bilbo again. I actually have the feeling Gandalf has at least some idea of what was happening in the Shire, but decided that the hobbits had 'grown up' enough by now to deal with it themselves. To answer Lalaith's orginal question, I don't think the hobbits returning earlier would change the situation too much. Perhaps it have given Saruman less time to settle in, but that doesn't really matter, since the ruffians were already menacing the inhabitants. Another interesting question is: did Wormtongue eat Lotho? __________________ Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try.

05-18-2003, 10:49 AM	#12
Sween im quite stupid Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Cockermouth Posts: 2,058	i Believe by the fact that Frodo and Sam went past Saurman they could of easily beat him to Bag end. This would be a bad thing for a number of reasons by the time Frodo got to bag end in the book they had taken out the majority of his forces and he didnt have time to lay plans etc! If they had gone stright home the ruffians would of met saurman on the way back and he would of been able to organise them better __________________ Yeah god hes ok but i would rather be judged by a sheep than that idiot

05-19-2003, 12:09 AM	#13
Ruinel Banned Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: I have no idea. Posts: 5,441	There were other forces at work. It was meant to be this way. Any earlier or later would have been a mistake. Gandalf knew what was happening, I'm sure of it. Or had a feeling that something was up. But he never revealed this to the Hobbits. As he had said before, there were other forces at work. It was meant that they show up at that particular time. To rouse the other Hobbits, to make their stand and take back the Shire.

05-20-2003, 02:47 PM	#14
*Earniel* The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium) Posts: 14,363	I do believe Gandalf knew something was afoot in the Shire. I seem to recall he made a comment to the hobbits that they would find a lot more gates on their way home than before. But I think he judged (and rightly so) that Saruman was but a little treath compared to what they had faced before. If they had arrived earlier Saruman would have had less chance to get installed in the Shire. he would also have wreaked a lot less damage. But I wonder that if the hobbits had indeed come home earlier, they would have been able to rally the hobbits like they did. The Shire-hobbits would have been less bullied and robbed. They wouldn't have been so easy to rouse then. __________________ We are not things.

05-20-2003, 03:18 PM	#15
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	Ah, interesting, the last two posts. It reminds me of somethng I said elsewhere on Entmoot, that a people values more that which has been more challenging to defend, and it is made the more valuable since they are the ones who did the defending, rather than an outside force.

05-21-2003, 09:07 PM	#18
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	Yes, but I'm sure they didn't go anywhere for a while after they got back, and also they were more up to travelling than Frodo, and I think Sam was happy to be a homebody.

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