Medieval Studies are Useless

GrayMouser · 05-09-2003, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Clarke dismisses medieval historians

Will Woodward and Rebecca Smithers
Friday May 9, 2003
The Guardian

Charles Clarke, the education secretary, has continued his assault on the great subjects of academe by revealing that he regards medieval history as "ornamental" and a waste of public money.

Not long after expressing the view that he didn't think much of classics and regarded the idea of education for its own sake as "a bit dodgy", Mr Clarke, who read maths and economics at King's College, Cambridge, went one further.

"I don't mind there being some medievalists around for ornamental purposes, but there is no reason for the state to pay for them," he said on a visit to University College, Worcester. He only wanted the state to pay for subjects of "clear usefulness", according to today's Times Higher Educational Supplement.

WWTS? (What Would Tolkien Say?)

Coney · 05-09-2003, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GrayMouser
WWTS? (What Would Tolkien Say?)

He'd prolly point out that anyone who studied maths and economics should stick to number crunching.

Huan · 05-09-2003, 03:28 PM

And this guy is your education secretary? uggghhhh, my brain is exploding.

Gwaimir Windgem · 05-09-2003, 03:36 PM

I doubt it's his, as according to GrayMouser's location, he lives in Portugal, whereas Charles Clarke is not a very Portuguese name.

Where is he from?

Oh, and by the way - Boo, down with Clarke! I'm gonna stand with Tolkien: "Stick to number crunching!"

On a somewhat related topic: I've been considering writing a novel set in the Medieval days, probably c. 1000 A. D. Does anyone know where I could find resources for this?

By the way, hoping you'll read this, GrayMouser: I think I sent you a PM a while back, but never got a reply. When you mentioned Charles William's being involved in the occult, what definition were you using? Devil-worship? High magic? "Christian mysticism"?

Huan · 05-09-2003, 03:49 PM

Gwaimir, there are huge numbers of resources you could find on that time period. Your local library should be full of books on the subject. Specifically, though, you might want to check out a book by Lacey Robert called The Year 1000: What Life was Like at the End of the Last Millennium. It was written to compare and contrast the turn of the last millennium with the Y2K craziness. I haven't read it myself, but I remember it being in the news at the time.

Case Sensitive · 05-09-2003, 03:54 PM

Quite an outrage. I'm a lover of the medieval period. Period.

Ruinel · 05-09-2003, 04:04 PM

*stands on soap box, clears voice*
I'd like to mention that research for the laser was almost not approved because there were no practical uses for it at the time it was proposed, nor could it be marketable to the public for any reasonable price or purpose. However, it was finally funded.

Research for the Bose-Einstein Condensate is currently ongoing. There are no practical uses for it as of yet, and the cost of this research is very expensive.

None of this has to do with the study of history. But I do have a point. Knowledge for the sake of knowing should never be dismissed as impractical or frivolous. Just because it can not be shown to have an immediate practical use or value, doesn't mean that it does not or will not benefit mankind in some way. Pursuing knowledge for the sake of knowledge is the only true education that a person can obtain. It can not be quantified or qualified by state standardized achievement tests nor by the misguided misconceptions of ignorant politicians.

Politicians like to valuate things they have no experience with or knowledge of. I doubt that Charles Clarke was ever an educator or researcher before he put his hand to education as the Secretary of State for Education and Skills for parliament. He is most likely looking to cut costs by cutting educational spending, much like what goes on in the United States. He'll think it's scoring him a few Brownie points with the voters so he can get reelected. That's what happens here. And it pains me to listen to the pretensions of politicians who claim to be "working in the best interests of the voters."Unfortunately, those that suffer most are the students.

ooh... work day is nearly done... goin' for beer soon. *does arm pull movement* Yessssss.

ArwenEvenstar · 05-09-2003, 04:47 PM

*claps hands loudly, notices that i am the only one doing so* very well said!

Shadowfax · 05-09-2003, 07:09 PM

What a ridiculous thing to say about history! Where does he get off saying any time in history is useless and ornamental? I happen to love the Middle Ages, and there is so much important stuff that happened then (ie Norman conquest of Anglo-Saxon England in 1066, etc.). I think that's also a very insensitive and ignorant thing to say.

To him I would say, look at the quotation in my sig. (by Cicero)!!!

Gwaimir Windgem · 05-09-2003, 09:58 PM

Here, here, Ru!

You know, I was just thinking of the line in your sig in regards to this question, Shadowfax. VERY fitting.

Anglorfin · 05-09-2003, 09:59 PM

People just shouldn't talk about what they don't understand. He can be excused because of his ignorance . . . Wait no he can't . . .

KILL

KILL

KILL

Ruinel · 05-09-2003, 10:22 PM

*rereads post and wonders if I should have explained what the Bose-Einstein Condensate project is*

................nah.

Gwaimir Windgem · 05-09-2003, 10:36 PM

I wondered a bit about that....but I figured it didn't matter.

Ruinel · 05-09-2003, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
I wondered a bit about that....but I figured it didn't matter.

It doesn't. The point was made without an explanation. BEC: 5th state of matter, albeit artificial (liquid, gas, solid, plasma, BEC). If anyone wants to know about BEC, they can look it up on the internet. Free knowledge for the taking. Get it while it's hot!

***azalea*** · 05-09-2003, 11:36 PM

Great post, Ruinel! (You know, the one up there ^

.)
"Useless" knowledge is the best kind, IMO!

Look where all of that applicable stuff has gotten us! (Okay, I'll admit I like having a dishwasher, but you get my main point!

)
I took Medieval history in college as an elective. I loved that class but it was challenging in that there was so much info to remember. We took a field trip to a working monastary, which was cool. I also got to learn all about different kinds of swords and weaponry (the prof's friend was an expert of sorts who came and spoke to the class).

Gwaimir Windgem · 05-09-2003, 11:43 PM

One of my dreams has been to visit a monastery.

Do the inhabitants still call themselves "monks"? I would think so, but I've never heard the term "monk" used to refer to the European type in a post-medieval setting, which generates my uncertainty.

Case Sensitive · 05-10-2003, 05:27 AM

Yes- in Europe the terms 'Monk' and 'Canon', 'Nun' etc are all still used.

Gwaimir Windgem · 05-10-2003, 11:28 AM

I knew Canon and Nun, just wasn't sure about Monk. Thanks.

Gwaimir Windgem · 05-11-2003, 02:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
By the way, hoping you'll read this, GrayMouser: I think I sent you a PM a while back, but never got a reply. When you mentioned Charles William's being involved in the occult, what definition were you using? Devil-worship? High magic? "Christian mysticism"?

I see you're on now, GrayMouser.

I'd appreciate a response.

GrayMouser · 05-11-2003, 02:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
I see you're on now, GrayMouser. I'd appreciate a response.

Uuuhhh... Did I say that? Sorry, my mind's a complete blank ( pause for hearty chorus of agreement)- could you give me a gentle reminder of the context?

And, sorry, I should have indicated that that was the British Secretary of Education. Of all countries... you'd think he'd appreciate the tourism value alone, nevermind that the birth of modern economics and statistics would hardly have happened without the study of parish records and other evidence from British history back to the Conquest.

BTW, while "Ilha Formosa" is Portuguese language, it was the name the early Portuguese navigators gave to Taiwan, which is my adopted home (I'm originally Canadian.)

It means "the Beautiful Isle", and while most of it is over-populated, grossly polluted, and currently menaced by SARS, the bit where I live still lives up to that name.

Sunday afternoon here, which means time to take the kids to the beach. Bye for now

05-09-2003, 03:36 PM	#4
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	I doubt it's his, as according to GrayMouser's location, he lives in Portugal, whereas Charles Clarke is not a very Portuguese name. Where is he from? Oh, and by the way - Boo, down with Clarke! I'm gonna stand with Tolkien: "Stick to number crunching!" On a somewhat related topic: I've been considering writing a novel set in the Medieval days, probably c. 1000 A. D. Does anyone know where I could find resources for this? By the way, hoping you'll read this, GrayMouser: I think I sent you a PM a while back, but never got a reply. When you mentioned Charles William's being involved in the occult, what definition were you using? Devil-worship? High magic? "Christian mysticism"? __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle Last edited by Gwaimir Windgem : 05-09-2003 at 03:38 PM.

05-09-2003, 03:54 PM	#6
Case Sensitive Sapling Join Date: May 2003 Location: Schleswig-Holstein, Germany Posts: 10	Quite an outrage. I'm a lover of the medieval period. Period. __________________ Wir Deutschen fuertschen Gott und sonst nicht auf der Welt We Germans fear God and nothing else in the whole World.

05-09-2003, 04:47 PM	#8
ArwenEvenstar Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: and why do YOU want to know? Posts: 685	claps hands loudly, notices that i am the only one doing so very well said! __________________ The only thing active about me is my imagination!

05-09-2003, 07:09 PM	#9
Shadowfax The Fleet-Footed Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: British Columbia Posts: 913	What a ridiculous thing to say about history! Where does he get off saying any time in history is useless and ornamental? I happen to love the Middle Ages, and there is so much important stuff that happened then (ie Norman conquest of Anglo-Saxon England in 1066, etc.). I think that's also a very insensitive and ignorant thing to say. To him I would say, look at the quotation in my sig. (by Cicero)!!! __________________ Jesus saved me "To remain ignorant of things that happened before you were born is to remain a child" (Cicero, 106-43 B.C.) "Art is a lie which makes us realize the truth" (Picasso) Last edited by Shadowfax : 05-09-2003 at 07:10 PM.

05-09-2003, 09:58 PM	#10
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	Here, here, Ru! You know, I was just thinking of the line in your sig in regards to this question, Shadowfax. VERY fitting. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

05-09-2003, 03:28 PM	#3
Huan Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Oxford, MS Posts: 274	And this guy is your education secretary? uggghhhh, my brain is exploding.

05-09-2003, 03:49 PM	#5
Huan Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Oxford, MS Posts: 274	Gwaimir, there are huge numbers of resources you could find on that time period. Your local library should be full of books on the subject. Specifically, though, you might want to check out a book by Lacey Robert called The Year 1000: What Life was Like at the End of the Last Millennium. It was written to compare and contrast the turn of the last millennium with the Y2K craziness. I haven't read it myself, but I remember it being in the news at the time.

05-09-2003, 04:04 PM	#7
Ruinel Banned Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: I have no idea. Posts: 5,441	stands on soap box, clears voice I'd like to mention that research for the laser was almost not approved because there were no practical uses for it at the time it was proposed, nor could it be marketable to the public for any reasonable price or purpose. However, it was finally funded. Research for the Bose-Einstein Condensate is currently ongoing. There are no practical uses for it as of yet, and the cost of this research is very expensive. None of this has to do with the study of history. But I do have a point. Knowledge for the sake of knowing should never be dismissed as impractical or frivolous. Just because it can not be shown to have an immediate practical use or value, doesn't mean that it does not or will not benefit mankind in some way. Pursuing knowledge for the sake of knowledge is the only true education that a person can obtain. It can not be quantified or qualified by state standardized achievement tests nor by the misguided misconceptions of ignorant politicians. Politicians like to valuate things they have no experience with or knowledge of. I doubt that Charles Clarke was ever an educator or researcher before he put his hand to education as the Secretary of State for Education and Skills for parliament. He is most likely looking to cut costs by cutting educational spending, much like what goes on in the United States. He'll think it's scoring him a few Brownie points with the voters so he can get reelected. That's what happens here. And it pains me to listen to the pretensions of politicians who claim to be "working in the best interests of the voters."Unfortunately, those that suffer most are the students. ooh... work day is nearly done... goin' for beer soon. does arm pull movement Yessssss.

05-09-2003, 09:59 PM	#11
Anglorfin Alasailon Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: college Posts: 861	People just shouldn't talk about what they don't understand. He can be excused because of his ignorance . . . Wait no he can't . . . KILL KILL KILL __________________ "and then this hobbit was walking, and then this elf jumped out of a bush and totally flipped out on him while wailing on his guitar." "Anglorfin was tall and straight; his hair was of shining gold, his face fair and young and fearless and full of anger; his eyes were bright and keen, and his voice like music; on his brow sat wisdom, and in his hand was great skill."

05-09-2003, 10:22 PM	#12
Ruinel Banned Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: I have no idea. Posts: 5,441	rereads post and wonders if I should have explained what the Bose-Einstein Condensate* project is* ................nah.

05-09-2003, 10:36 PM	#13
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	I wondered a bit about that....but I figured it didn't matter. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

05-09-2003, 11:36 PM	#15
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	Great post, Ruinel! (You know, the one up there ^ .) "Useless" knowledge is the best kind, IMO! Look where all of that applicable stuff has gotten us! (Okay, I'll admit I like having a dishwasher, but you get my main point! ) I took Medieval history in college as an elective. I loved that class but it was challenging in that there was so much info to remember. We took a field trip to a working monastary, which was cool. I also got to learn all about different kinds of swords and weaponry (the prof's friend was an expert of sorts who came and spoke to the class).

05-09-2003, 11:43 PM	#16
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	One of my dreams has been to visit a monastery. Do the inhabitants still call themselves "monks"? I would think so, but I've never heard the term "monk" used to refer to the European type in a post-medieval setting, which generates my uncertainty. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

05-10-2003, 05:27 AM	#17
Case Sensitive Sapling Join Date: May 2003 Location: Schleswig-Holstein, Germany Posts: 10	Yes- in Europe the terms 'Monk' and 'Canon', 'Nun' etc are all still used. __________________ Wir Deutschen fuertschen Gott und sonst nicht auf der Welt We Germans fear God and nothing else in the whole World.

05-10-2003, 11:28 AM	#18
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	I knew Canon and Nun, just wasn't sure about Monk. Thanks. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

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