Turgon's Folly

[Maedhros]

Could the Ñoldor of Turgon had been saved?
I have always thought that Turgon messed up big time by not following the advice of Tuor/Ulmo, but can we really blame him?
Why did Turgon became proud and refused the aid of Ulmo?
From the Published Silmarillion : Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin

Then Turgon pondered long the counsel of Ulmo, and there came into his mind the words that were spoken to him in Vinyamar: 'Love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West, and cometh from the Sea.' But Turgon was become proud, and Gondolin as beautiful as a memory of Elven Tirion, and he trusted still in its secret and impregnable strength, though even a Vala should gainsay it

Now contrast that with the Version of The Book of Lost Tales II: The Fall of Gondolin

Then spake Turgon: "That will I not do, though it be the words of Ulmo and all the Valar. I will not adventure this my people against the terror of the Orcs, nor emperil my city against the fire of Melko."
Then spake Tuor: "Nay, if thou dost not now dare greatly then will the Orcs dwell for ever and possess in the end most of the mountains of the Earth, and cease not to trouble both Elves and Men, even though by other means the Valar contrive hereafter to release the Noldoli; but if thou trust now to the Valar, though terrible the encounter, then shall the Orcs fall, and Melko's power be minished to a little thing."

But look at the alternative proposal offered by Tuor/Ulmo:
From The Book of Lost Tales II: The Fall of Gondolin

but Tuor said, for thus was he bidden by Ulmo who had feared the reluctance of Turgon: "Then am I bidden to say that men of the Gondothlim repair swiftly and secretly down the river Sirion to the sea, and there build them boats and go seek back to Valinor: lo! the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, yet still dwell there the Elves on the hill of Kôr and the Gods sit in Valinor, though their mirth is minished for sorrow and fear of Melko, and they hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic that no evil come to its shores. Yet still might thy messengers win there and turn their hearts that they rise in wrath and smite Melko, and destroy the Hells of Iron that he has wrought beneath the Mountains of Darkness."
Then said Turgon: "Every year at the lifting of winter have messengers repaired swiftly and by stealth down the river that is called Sirion to the coasts of the Great Sea, and there builded them boats whereto have swans and gulls been harnessed or the strong wings of the wind, and these have sought back beyond the moon and sun to Valinor; but the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, and they that sit within in mirth reck little of the dread of Melko or the sorrow of the world, but hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic, that no tidings of evil come ever to their ears. Nay, enough of my people have for years untold gone out to the wide waters never to return, but have perished in the deep places or wander now lost in the shadows that have no paths;

Turgon had already done as Ulmo wished but without his aid , the mariners of Turgon couldn’t reach Aman. Can Turgon really be blamed for not leaving Gondolin?
Althought it was because of Ulmo’s advice that Gondolin could first be built.
From the Published Silmarillion : Of the Noldor in Beleriand

It has been told how by the guidance of Ulmo Turgon of Nevrast discovered the hidden vale of Tumladen; and that (as was after known) lay east of the upper waters of Sirion, in a ring of mountains tall and sheer, and no living thing came there save the eagles of Thorondor. But there was a deep way under the mountains delved in the darkness of the world by waters that flowed out to join the streams of Sirion; and this way Turgon found, and so came to the green plain amid the mountains, and saw the island-hill that stood there of hard smooth stone; for the vale had been a great lake in ancient days. Then Turgon knew that he had found the place of his desire, and he resolved to build there a fair city, a memorial of Tirion upon Túna; but he returned to Nevrast, and remained there in peace, though he pondered ever in his thought how he should accomplish his design.

Was it because he was loath to abandon anything he had set his mind to do?
From the Published Silmarillion : Of the Flight of the Noldor

Moreover Fingon and Turgon were bold and fiery of heart, and loath to abandon any task to which they had put their hands until the bitter end, if bitter it must be.

Why is it that he trusted Turgon in the beginning and not in the end?

[Maedhros]

Could he had almost repented at the end?

Now in those days was Eärendel one year old when these ill tidings came to that city of the spies of Melko and how they encompassed the vale of Tumladin around. Then Turgon's heart was saddened, remembering the words of Tuor in past years before the palace doors

Was his love for his city greater than that of his citizens?
From The Book of Lost Tales II: The Fall of Gondolin

And Salgant quaked to think of it and spake noisily, saying: "Meglin speaks well, O King, hear thou him." Then the king took the counsel of those twain though all the lords said otherwise, nay rather the more for that: therefore at his bidding does all that folk abide now the assault upon their walls. But Tuor wept and left the king's hall, and gathering the men of the Wing went through the streets seeking his home; and by that hour was the light great and lurid and there was stifling heat and a black smoke and stench arose about the pathways to the city.

Gondolin and Turgon are the perfect example of the tragedy of the Ñoldor in the Quenta Silmarillion. You have the great and proud Ñoldorian prince Turgon, who built the most beautiful elven city in ME in the image of Tirion the Fair. The magnificence that it reached, and by that same love and pride that it was builded eventually most of it’s citizens and his king were destroyed, because of their pride and unwillingness to abandon their work. Was pride and love of their work the downfall of the Ñoldor?

Eventually from that destruction came the salvation of ME, but what if Turgon had accepted the advice of Ulmo, would ME had been better off?
From The Book of Lost Tales II: The Fall of Gondolin

Then did the Gondothlim clash their weapons, for many stood nigh, but Turgon said: "Fight not against doom, O my children! Seek ye who may safety in flight, if perhaps there be time yet: but let Tuor have your lealty." But Tuor said: "Thou art king"; and Turgon made answer: "Yet no blow will I strike more", and he cast his crown at the roots of Glingol. Then did Galdor who stood there pick it up, but Turgon accepted it not, and bare of head climbed to the topmost pinnacle of that white tower that stood nigh his palace. There he shouted in a voice like a horn blown among the mountains, and all that were gathered beneath the Trees and the foemen in the mists of the square heard him: "Great is the victory of the Noldoli!" And 'tis said that it was then middle night, and that the Orcs yelled in derision.

I can almost see the magnificence and pride of Turgon and their tragic fall defending to the very last his city.

[Anglorfin]

I would comment on this but I have not finished reading BoLT. However it just seems that his Noldorin pride caught up with him, and pride was probably the greatest instrument in fullfilling the Curse of Mandos.

[azalea]

Oh, I am so upset! I had a post written out, but it got lost when I tried to post it!! Grrrr!!

I'll try to recreate what I said:
My short and simple (and as usual, optimistic) answer is that he and his people had hope that they could live and endure in spite of everything, and hope that they could endure until the destruction of Melkor and beyond by just maintaining. This was of course a false hope, but it is I think one that is common to many people. I'll have to reread and ponder some more before I add anything.

[Earniel]

I loved 'The Fall of Gondolin' in The Book of Lost Tales. You would almost feel the feat of the flames, hear the clash of battle and the cries of the orcs and see the serpent tear down the tower of the king. *sigh* I was sad because so little of it made it into the Silmarillion.

In the end it was treason, the curse of the Noldor, that brought down Gondolin. Though I think pride for the unequalled beauty of Gondolin (at least in Middle-earth) and pride for the peace they had within the valley, had something to do as well.

We might say that Turgon did wrong to ignore Ulmo's word and that he should have left. But we do so because we know what happened when he did not listen. If we think from Turgon's point of view, I don't think we can blame him. He didn't want to risk his people beyond the safety of the valley and he did not want to experience the grief to leave the fair city that he founded himself again as they had lost TÃ*rion.

Only an Elf with absolute faith in the Valar would have left Gondolin and turned back West. I think Turgon assumed that road was closed to him because of the kinslaying and the doom.

[Artanis]

Yup, 'The Fall of Gondolin' is a great piece.

Originally posted by Eärniel
I think Turgon assumed that road was closed to him because of the kinslaying and the doom.

That's a very good point Eärniel! My respect for Turgon increases with this. I can understand his choices better now.

[Maedhros]

I think Turgon assumed that road was closed to him because of the kinslaying and the doom.

And of the beauty of Gondolin.
From the Book of Lost Tales II: The Fall of Gondolin

Now the streets of Gondolin were paved with stone and wide, kerbed with marble, and fair houses and courts amid gardens of bright flowers were set about the ways, and many towers of great slenderness and beauty builded of white marble and carved most marvellously rose to the heaven. Squares there were lit with fountains and the home of birds that sang amid the branches of their aged trees, but of all these the greatest was that place where stood the king's palace, and the tower thereof was the loftiest in the city, and the fountains that played before the doors shot twenty fathoms and seven in the air and fell in a singing rain of crystal: therein did the sun glitter splendidly by day, and the moon most magically shimmered by night. The birds that dwelt there were of the whiteness of snow and their voices sweeter than a lullaby of music.

Can we blame him for not wanting to leave Gondolin.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Artanis
That's a very good point Eärniel! My respect for Turgon increases with this. I can understand his choices better now.

Thanks. Turgon is my favorite Elven king.

[Artanis]

Mine too, now.

[Anglorfin]

He has always been mine. I say a few things on these points in the "Favorite Elf-King" thread. But ignoring the Valar is probably the best example of his pride that I can think of. He did not want to subject himself to something like an apology, especially when many of the Noldor saw themselves as being wronged in the first place. Maybe even moreso because he was not affiliated with the sons of Feanor, and had to cross the Grinding Ice and endure so much perile in Middle Earth even for his own kin's sake. I would think that the last thing on his mind would be to offer an apology.

Remember, even when Maedhros and Maglor were (rightfully) given the oppurtunity to repent, in the end Maedhros's pride prevented him from doing so.

[Silpion]

I think in the end Turgon didn’t want to leave what he had created. He may have believed that the survival of his city would mean the survival of his people. Gondolin was a place he had designed and built, a hidden city comparable to Tirion. I think he was lulled into a false sense of security. Gondolin may have been cut off from the rest of Middle Earth but those years were spent in security and peace. Maybe he could only separate the two (his creation and his people) at the end when it was to late.

[Anglorfin]

Somehow I don't think of Turgon as being so vain. That was definately part of it, but not the main part. I still think that his downfall was brought about by the same traits that the Noldor suffer from whether as a result of the Curse or not.


anyway welcome aboard Silpion!

[Maedhros]

Remember, even when Maedhros and Maglor were (rightfully) given the oppurtunity to repent, in the end Maedhros's pride prevented him from doing so.

He had given his word, Turgon had no such problem.

[Silpion]

I don’t believe Turgon was vain so much as he had that Noldorin pride that wouldn’t let him walk away from Gondolin. I don’t think he was a bad king, he made decisions that from his perspective were the correct ones. He was ruler of this hidden city that very few new how to find, his city wasn’t just some place where the people would hunker down and do their best to hide from evil. It was a secure place, Gondolin was encircled by mountains with a flat plain that led to the city, you shouldn’t be able to sneak up to the city. Eagles guarded the air. It took passing through seven gates to get into the city. Gondolin had twelve houses of elven warriors who bore arms and made weapons for defending Gondolin. They were watchers and sentries to guard against intruders. They had lived there long enough and felt safe enough to create a beautiful city filled with houses, gardens, towers, fountains, etc. Gondolin was Turgon’s home, he had created this haven of safety. His people dwelt there, his daughter and her husband lived there and his grandson. Maybe in Turgon’s view, Gondolin was the safest place to be in spite of Ulmo’s words to leave.

I agree with your post, Anglorfin. I was trying to say Turgon’s pride was his folly not his vanity, I didn’t do a good job at expressing that. Thank you for the welcome. I am glad to be here.