Gollum Debate

[Elf Girl]

This is carried over from the "Who are you in ME?" thread, where PsychoKitty seemed to think that Gollum lead a happy, contented life, and also that he was right to take the Ring from Déagol. This is where we can debate that! *maniacal laughter* Excuse me. I love debate.

Originally posted by Psycho Kitty
He WAS right to take the ring! Just think if he had given it to the village elder or something then it most likely would have caused much worse trouble because it would have wound up in the hands of someone powerful enough to make a mess of things.

But the Ring was not his. Déagol found it, it was for Déagol to decide what to do with it. All the laws of honesty support me.

Originally posted by Psycho Kitty
You would have had murder after murder and tribes battling against tribes and eventually mass war and certainly by then evil forces would have been focusing on the ring because it would have become obvious the one ring had been found. it would make a mess of things.

I doubt it. Déagol was a primitive little Stoor, do you think he would even have the strength to turn it in to anyone else? He would almost certainly have kept it for himself, eventually becoming like Gollum, though probably not quite as twisted.

Originally posted by Psycho Kitty
so how can you fault him for taking this burdon himself and hiding it away where it couldnt cause all this mess. he did everyone a favor! thats why hes a hero.

He might be if he had 'hidden it away' for good purposes. But we know the Ring had corrupted him at that point. He desired only to possess it and keep it safe. ('Safe' meaning belonging to him.)

Originally posted by Psycho Kitty
and who cares about Déagol. I would kill him too. along with nasty elves.....<evil smilie>

So Gollum was right to murder his best friend?

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Elf Girl
This is carried over from the "Who are you in ME?" thread, where PsychoKitty seemed to think that Gollum lead a happy, contented life, and also that he was right to take the Ring from Déagol. This is where we can debate that! *maniacal laughter* Excuse me. I love debate.


But the Ring was not his. Déagol found it, it was for Déagol to decide what to do with it. All the laws of honesty support me.


I doubt it. Déagol was a primitive little Stoor, do you think he would even have the strength to turn it in to anyone else? He would almost certainly have kept it for himself, eventually becoming like Gollum, though probably not quite as twisted.


He might be if he had 'hidden it away' for good purposes. But we know the Ring had corrupted him at that point. He desired only to possess it and keep it safe. ('Safe' meaning belonging to him.)


So Gollum was right to murder his best friend?

Elf Girl, are you sure it's the place for this thread?

I agree with Elf Girl mostly. Gollum was wrong - he killed his best friend and was exiled his tribe, becuase of a the one ring - but I cna't exactly blame him, the power of the ring was too strong for him.

[Psycho Kitty]

ok elf bring it....

the point is i like gollum because he is the purest of all the characters in my opinion. and he is that way because of the ring. he was a petty little nothing at first and the ring helped him lose himself and become something so ideal to me. he no longer cared about ALL the stupid things normal people care about. and that makes him so much better then all those stupid pathetic conformists. they are better dead if you ask me. he did his friend a favor. and the ring to me is like the ultimate drug. it totally takes over your world. it twists you yes. warps the way you think yes. but it also takes away all the normal sh*t that you would have to deal with normally and that seems like perfection to me. ill take being controlled by an evil object for that. its a price i am willing to pay. now stop trying to talk me out of my drug cause i like it.

[Dreran the Green]

Gollum is not some kind of rebel against conformity because he got mind-warped by a ring. He's just another poor lost soul who fell victim to Sauron's obsession with shiny little gold things.
I don't think you can argue about Gollum being the purest character. I think there has to be something impure to begin with in order for the Ring to corrupt you entirely. I mean, if Sam had found the ring instead of Deagol, I don't think Frodo would have strangled his best friend for it. Do you?

[Elf Girl]

Originally posted by Psycho Kitty
the point is i like gollum because he is the purest of all the characters in my opinion. and he is that way because of the ring. he was a petty little nothing at first and the ring helped him lose himself and become something so ideal to me. he no longer cared about ALL the stupid things normal people care about. and that makes him so much better then all those stupid pathetic conformists. they are better dead if you ask me. he did his friend a favor. and the ring to me is like the ultimate drug. it totally takes over your world. it twists you yes. warps the way you think yes. but it also takes away all the normal sh*t that you would have to deal with normally and that seems like perfection to me. ill take being controlled by an evil object for that. its a price i am willing to pay. now stop trying to talk me out of my drug cause i like it.

That scares me. If you like being corrupted I can't argue with you. But remember the Ring betrays everyone in the end. Also, the Stoors had an idyllic, rural life. (In my opinion.) Unconcerned with 'normal sh*t that you would have to deal with normally' like battles and the Dark Lord. All that changed for Sméagol when he first put on the Ring.

He had a love/hate relationship with the Ring:

Gollum used to wear it at first, till it tired him; and then he kept it in a pouch next his skin, till it galled him; and now usually he hid it in a hole in the rock on his island, and was always going back to look at it. And still sometimes he put it on, when he could not bear to be parted from it any longer, or when he was very, very, hungry, and tired of fish.

[Psycho Kitty]

Originally posted by Dreran the Green
Gollum is not some kind of rebel against conformity because he got mind-warped by a ring. He's just another poor lost soul who fell victim to Sauron's obsession with shiny little gold things.
I don't think you can argue about Gollum being the purest character. I think there has to be something impure to begin with in order for the Ring to corrupt you entirely. I mean, if Sam had found the ring instead of Deagol, I don't think Frodo would have strangled his best friend for it. Do you?

ya i do think he is the purest character. to me purity is being as close to pure animal as possible. not all mixed up by things like compassion and loyalty and devotion and everything. and troubled with typical every day worries. the ring took all that stuff away from smeagol and whats left is gollum who isnt hindered by that shnit. he is free to be himself in the purest most basic form. all he has is his isolation and his adiction to the ring. beautiful and basic.

[Dreran the Green]

If you think purity is being as close to pure animal as possible, then you have to admit that animals don't get addicted to things.

....except perhaps the poor animals used in laboratory testing. I HATE WHOEVER DECIDED TO DO THAT TO ANIMALS.

But ANYWAY, animals can show things like loyalty and compassion, too. Look at dogs. I know for a fact that if my dog saw someone trying to hurt me she'd be at their throat. I know because its happened before.

[Psycho Kitty]

ya elf but dont you think if he HADNT taken the ring things could have been much worse for middle earth? what better situation could there have been other then for him to take it and basically keep it from corrupting anyone for all those years? if it had gotten back to someone powerful you know it woulda made a mess. people would have died. lots of em. and in the end it works out cause it goes from him to a hobbit to another hobbit. if it had gone to anyone else along the way it probably would never have been destroyed. so you can thank gollum now!!!

[Psycho Kitty]

Originally posted by Dreran the Green
But ANYWAY, animals can show things like loyalty and compassion, too. Look at dogs. I know for a fact that if my dog saw someone trying to hurt me she'd be at their throat. I know because its happened before.

think wild dogs. not ones warped by humans trying to make a different breed. and think real basic instincts. thats basically what im sayin. gollum isnt cluttered by stuff that life forces you and me to deal with.

[Dreran the Green]

Well, that does make sense to me. But I still can't agree that Gollum was the purest character there was.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Moving to the Lord of the Rings book forum.

[Ragnarok]

Originally posted by Psycho Kitty
and think real basic instincts. thats basically what im sayin. gollum isnt cluttered by stuff that life forces you and me to deal with.

Ummmm...... you really can't compare things we go through in these days because #1 Middle Earth isn't real its fantasy and #2 The setting of LotR takes place in lets say something more like the Dark Ages or Medieval (sp) times and not in the year 2003.

[Indril Anarion]

Both of you make interesting points...Psycho Kitty is right that if it wasn't for Gollum, it may have fallen into more powerful hands and made a huge mess out of everything...I guess it's just fate...But I agree with Dreran the Green that Gollum is not the purest character. I would say that Frodo was the purest one, but that's my opinion...

[Wayfarer]

ya i do think he is the purest character. to me purity is being as close to pure animal as possible.

You want to give me your address? I have some animal instincts for Blood and Pain that I'd like to satisfy. While I'm at it, I had promised Dr. Lector we'd have dinner sometime, so you can foot that bill as well.

Look, I'm normally a nice guy. I make it a point to be as nice as possible. But PshycoKitty is just being... well, dumb. And I feel ok with letting her see the gollumish side of my nature.

By the By... You do realize that gollum, alone and happy in his cave, would have eaten you, right?

[Sheeana]

Let's not be overly delusional, here. We all know exactly what kind of nice guy you are. Btw: thanks for making me break my resolve not to touch this thread with a 10ft barge pole...

[Elf Girl]

Originally posted by Psycho Kitty
ya elf but dont you think if he HADNT taken the ring things could have been much worse for middle earth? what better situation could there have been other then for him to take it and basically keep it from corrupting anyone for all those years? if it had gotten back to someone powerful you know it woulda made a mess. people would have died. lots of em. and in the end it works out cause it goes from him to a hobbit to another hobbit. if it had gone to anyone else along the way it probably would never have been destroyed. so you can thank gollum now!!!

What you say is true, however I think we can agree that he did not take it thinking, "Hmm, this looks very powerful, I think I'll take it and hide it in a mountain for five hundred years so it can't corrupt anyone." Of course not. He did not know the ring was evil. He knew it was shiny and gold and precioussss... Just because his action was good for Middle-Earth in the long run, does not justify stealing and murder.

[Psycho Kitty]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
You want to give me your address? I have some animal instincts for Blood and Pain that I'd like to satisfy. While I'm at it, I had promised Dr. Lector we'd have dinner sometime, so you can foot that bill as well.

Look, I'm normally a nice guy. I make it a point to be as nice as possible. But PshycoKitty is just being... well, dumb. And I feel ok with letting her see the gollumish side of my nature.

By the By... You do realize that gollum, alone and happy in his cave, would have eaten you, right?

oh back away kinky boy. you wanna play rough with me you betta be ready to donate blood yurself. ive got sharp teeth and when my jaw locks i dont let go k? and when i say eat me take it as an insult.

your gollumish side leaves much to be desired. you arent worthy. and i doubt youre ever a nice guy but thats probably the only cool thing aboutcha.

ya he woulda tried. and i admire him for that. if you can catch me you can eat me <evil grin>

[Psycho Kitty]

Originally posted by Elf Girl
What you say is true, however I think we can agree that he did not take it thinking, "Hmm, this looks very powerful, I think I'll take it and hide it in a mountain for five hundred years so it can't corrupt anyone." Of course not. He did not know the ring was evil. He knew it was shiny and gold and precioussss... Just because his action was good for Middle-Earth in the long run, does not justify stealing and murder.

hey i never said he was a noble hero. i hate the idea of purposeful heroism. so [edit] righteous. it makes me wanna puke. the true hero is the antihero. who ends up doing the best possible thing by just following his basic instincts. i really think thats what tolkien was trying to say by having gollum play the roll he did. that its not just about big obvious heros. that its about little people who dont really matter and who dont care about much. and its about creatures who have escaped the normal world and only follow their instincts now for better of for worse. i dont think its a coincidence that alll the powerful people in the books DONT have anything to do with destroying the ring.

as for justifying murder well spare me your morality. and remember i am talking about GOLLUM here. NOT smeagol. if you want to condem smeagol with your petty morals go ahead. but gollum is a different creature. and thats the one i admire.

[Snowdog]

Ah, the ol Slinker & Stinker debate. Smeagol may have been a troubled youth, but as far as we know the first evil deed if his was lilling Deagol for the Ring, hence is it not the Ring that drove his will to evil in the first place, forever to his death consuming his every breath?

[Dreran the Green]

Originally posted by Psycho Kitty
hey i never said he was a noble hero. i hate the idea of purposeful heroism. so [edit] righteous. it makes me wanna puke. the true hero is the antihero. who ends up doing the best possible thing by just following his basic instincts. i really think thats what tolkien was trying to say by having gollum play the roll he did. that its not just about big obvious heros. that its about little people who dont really matter and who dont care about much. and its about creatures who have escaped the normal world and only follow their instincts now for better of for worse. i dont think its a coincidence that alll the powerful people in the books DONT have anything to do with destroying the ring.

as for justifying murder well spare me your morality. and remember i am talking about GOLLUM here. NOT smeagol. if you want to condem smeagol with your petty morals go ahead. but gollum is a different creature. and thats the one i admire.

Why do you hate the idea of the noble hero? I thought it was a good thing to be heroic enough to give your life fighting for a cause you beleive in. I mean, I understand your point about the antihero but that doesn't mean you should condemn righteousness. I would like to point out that if there were no heroes, there would be no antiheroes.