Seven stars?

Lanelf · 03-03-2003, 05:24 PM

This has been bugging me for a while:
In the verse that Gandalf recites to Pippin while they're on Shadowfax, he mentions "Seven Stars and Seven Stones and one white tree". I get the stones (Palantiri) and the tree, but I just don't know what these stars are. Is one of them the one Aragorn wears in ROTK?
Lanelf.

Gwaimir Windgem · 03-03-2003, 06:39 PM

I seem to remember the Dunedain of the North having something to do with Stars and the number Seven?

durin's bane · 03-03-2003, 07:55 PM

I think there are seven stars on the Gondorian crest. I'm not sure.

WallRocker · 03-03-2003, 09:25 PM

I thought Gandalf talked about the stars in TTT. Or maybe Unfinished Tales. Or maybe neither. However, even if it is in one of those book, I don't remember where

Some help I am, huh?

Lefty Scaevola · 03-03-2003, 09:28 PM

Rhere are 7 stars on their crest in a dmome pattern over the white tree. Since Numenor was a a seafaring nation, I would hazard a guess that they refer to seven bright stars most commonly used for navigation.

markedel · 03-03-2003, 11:11 PM

Well the white tree is the sign of Elendil. Are the Seven Stars Numenorian? Or do they represent the fortresses of the realms? Minas Anor and Ithil, Osgilliath,Orthanc,Annuminas,Amon Sul and Elendil's tower on the tower hills?

Artanis · 03-04-2003, 07:56 AM

The seven stars may refer to the Sickle of the Valar in the North. In the Silmarillion, Of the coming of the Elves and the captivity of Melkor, it is told that Varda made the stars before the Elves awoke:

Quote:

And high in the north as a challenge to Melkor she set the crown of seven mighty stars to swing, Valacirca, the Sickle of the Valar and sign of doom.

Andúril · 03-04-2003, 03:07 PM

Hmmm, from FotR, pg 290:

Quote:

The Sword of Elendil was forged anew by Elvish smiths, and on its blade was traced a device of seven stars set between the crescent Moon and the rayed Sun, and about them was written many runes; for Aragorn son of Arathorn was going to war upon the marches of Mordor.

I don't know how relevant this post is, but what the hey, I'm not thinking straight.

Lanelf · 03-04-2003, 05:14 PM

Thanks for the ideas everyone! I'll have to reread Unfinished Tales to check that reference - dagnamit. Last time it took me weeks. But it was well worth reading!
Lanelf.

The Lady of Ithilien · 03-05-2003, 10:16 PM

That's a really good question -- hope you find the answer in Unfinished Tales or one of the other books. About the only thing I could add is this quote from "The Battle of the Pelennor Fields":

Quote:

...a great standard broke...[t]here flowered a White Tree, and that was for Gondor; but Seven Stars were about it, and a high crown above it, the signs of Elendil...

The crown Elendil would have taken as a sign in Middle-earth, as he wasn't in direct line for it in Numenor. It's tempting to think the Seven Stars were related to the locations of the palantiri in Middle-earth, as mentioned above by someone, but the name "Elendil" can be translated as "Starlover," as well as "Elf Friend," so they likely refer to stars. But which stars or why, ?????

One suggestion: in Numenor during the persecution of the faithful, possession of the palantiri, gifts from the Eldar, was too dangerous to acknowledge publicly even for such a prominent family...did Elendil's family perhaps take the Seven Stars as code for the palantiri that only the Faithful would understand?

However, it's interesting to note that Durin's emblems were an anvil and a hammer surmounted by a crown with seven stars; however, the arrangement of crown and stars was different in the device shown on the Doors of Moria. And presumably it was those seven stars that Frodo and Sam saw in Kheled-zaram. Would Elendil have taken them as part of his device in Middle-earth, too? (Would hardly have endeared him to the Dwarves of Durin's family, one would think.)

Falagar · 03-06-2003, 12:16 PM

And remember the seven stars at the gate of Moria, the sign of the Noldor who lived in Eregion...

The Lady of Ithilien · 03-10-2003, 02:33 PM

Oh, were they the signs of the Noldor? I thought those were connected with Durin's Crown, and the signs of the Noldor on the Doors were the two trees bearing crescent moons and the single star of Fëanor.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 03-10-2003, 03:41 PM

From the Complete Guide to Middle-earth by Robert Foster.

Seven Stars - The Valacirca. The sickle of the Valar.

Seven Stars - The six pointed stars that served as the emblem of Elendil and his heirs. They represented the single stars on the banners of each of the ships of the Faithful that bore a palantir.

***azalea*** · 03-11-2003, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair

Seven Stars - The six pointed stars...

This confused me. Is it a typo? Or did I miss why it was called seven starts when there are only six or something?

Artanis · 03-11-2003, 02:48 PM

I think it means seven stars with six points on each

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 03-11-2003, 09:54 PM

That is correct Artanis.

markedel · 03-12-2003, 12:33 PM

where is this sourced from? You'd think there'd be nine stars-one for every ship.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 03-12-2003, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by markedel
where is this sourced from? You'd think there'd be nine stars-one for every ship.

It was only on the ships that bore a palantiri.

***azalea*** · 03-13-2003, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Artanis
I think it means seven stars with six points on each

Oh, I get it!

My mom was visiting this week, so I've been out of it.

Falagar · 12-30-2003, 11:00 AM

Updating this thread a bit

The info is taken from the Index in LotR: RotK (I don't think all books have this index, but my copy from the sixties or seventies did).

03-03-2003, 05:24 PM	#1
Lanelf Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: The Second Drawer Down Posts: 407	Seven stars? This has been bugging me for a while: In the verse that Gandalf recites to Pippin while they're on Shadowfax, he mentions "Seven Stars and Seven Stones and one white tree". I get the stones (Palantiri) and the tree, but I just don't know what these stars are. Is one of them the one Aragorn wears in ROTK? Lanelf. __________________ Hey, I'm back! resounding silence You didn't even notice I was gone, did you? Well, I'm back now anyway. Artemis Fowl must find Mulch Diggums! You'll never shut down the real Napster

03-03-2003, 06:39 PM	#2
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	I seem to remember the Dunedain of the North having something to do with Stars and the number Seven? __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

03-03-2003, 07:55 PM	#3
durin's bane Lady of Westernesse Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Canada (Help! Our parliament building is melting!) Posts: 761	I think there are seven stars on the Gondorian crest. I'm not sure. __________________ Yada, yada, yada

03-03-2003, 09:25 PM	#4
WallRocker Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: At the computer... Posts: 376	I thought Gandalf talked about the stars in TTT. Or maybe Unfinished Tales. Or maybe neither. However, even if it is in one of those book, I don't remember where Some help I am, huh? __________________ Do one thing every day that scares you ~Anonymous~ <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><<>< <>< <>< <>< I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America And to the Republic for which it stands One nation UNDER GOD with liberty and justice for all

03-03-2003, 11:11 PM	#6
markedel 'Sober' Mullet Frosh Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Queen's Posts: 1,245	Well the white tree is the sign of Elendil. Are the Seven Stars Numenorian? Or do they represent the fortresses of the realms? Minas Anor and Ithil, Osgilliath,Orthanc,Annuminas,Amon Sul and Elendil's tower on the tower hills? __________________ "Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom"

03-03-2003, 09:28 PM	#5
Lefty Scaevola AngAdan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boerne, Texas Posts: 856	Rhere are 7 stars on their crest in a dmome pattern over the white tree. Since Numenor was a a seafaring nation, I would hazard a guess that they refer to seven bright stars most commonly used for navigation.

03-04-2003, 05:14 PM	#9
Lanelf Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: The Second Drawer Down Posts: 407	Thanks for the ideas everyone! I'll have to reread Unfinished Tales to check that reference - dagnamit. Last time it took me weeks. But it was well worth reading! Lanelf. __________________ Hey, I'm back! resounding silence You didn't even notice I was gone, did you? Well, I'm back now anyway. Artemis Fowl must find Mulch Diggums! You'll never shut down the real Napster

03-06-2003, 12:16 PM	#11
Falagar Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 2,870	And remember the seven stars at the gate of Moria, the sign of the Noldor who lived in Eregion... __________________ Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. Last edited by Falagar : 03-06-2003 at 12:22 PM.

03-10-2003, 03:41 PM	#13
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	From the Complete Guide to Middle-earth by Robert Foster. Seven Stars - The Valacirca. The sickle of the Valar. Seven Stars - The six pointed stars that served as the emblem of Elendil and his heirs. They represented the single stars on the banners of each of the ships of the Faithful that bore a palantir. __________________ "Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

03-11-2003, 02:48 PM	#15
Artanis Greatest Elven woman of Aman Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7 Posts: 4,285	I think it means seven stars with six points on each __________________ --Life is hard, and then we die.

03-11-2003, 09:54 PM	#16
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	That is correct Artanis. __________________ "Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

03-12-2003, 12:33 PM	#17
markedel 'Sober' Mullet Frosh Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Queen's Posts: 1,245	where is this sourced from? You'd think there'd be nine stars-one for every ship. __________________ "Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom"

12-30-2003, 11:00 AM	#20
Falagar Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 2,870	Updating this thread a bit The info is taken from the Index in LotR: RotK (I don't think all books have this index, but my copy from the sixties or seventies did). __________________ Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle.

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