Valar: Gods or Angels?

barrelrider110 · 02-05-2003, 10:47 AM

Before reading the Silmarillion, I read a few essays about the work, and a few of them refer to the Valar as Gods, and some refer to them as angels. Now I know these terms are "dumbed down," but after reading the Sil twice it still puzzles me, so I would like to inquire of the participants of this forum (whom I consider to be very wise):

If you had to categorize the Valar in this manner, how would you describe them?

Maedhros · 02-05-2003, 10:56 AM

Angels, Ilúvatar is the one true God.

barrelrider110 · 02-05-2003, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Maedhros
Angels, Ilúvatar is the one true God.

But that statement is not in the Sil. I agree, particularly that Tolkien himself was a devout Catholic, and I doubt he would have envisioned a world governed by anything other than a monotheistic diety.

However, consider the following:

From Valaquenta, Of the Valar:

Quote:

The Great among these spirits the Elves name the Valar, the Powers of Arda, and Men have often called them gods.

And in Chapter 8, The Darkening of Valinor, Tolkien as narrator refers to the Valar as gods:

Quote:

But now upon the mountain-top dark Ungoliant lay; and she made a ladder of woven ropes and cast it down, and Melkor climbed upon it and came to that high place, and stood beside her, looking down upon the Guarded Realm. Below them lay the woods of Oromë, and westward shimmered the fields and pastures of Yavanna, gold beneath the tall wheat of the gods.

Furthermore, the Valar have the ability to create, and behave a lot like the gods of Greek mythology.

Still puzzled.

celeb-galad · 02-05-2003, 12:11 PM

I would definitely call the Valar "Gods" and the Maiar "Angels".
Ilúvatar falls out of this category - he is the creator of all.

zimrahil · 02-05-2003, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Maedhros
Angels, Ilúvatar is the one true God.

Agree with this 100%. Ilúvatar is only entity able to create life with independent thought (eg Dwarves), which in my mind makes him God. The Valar however cannot, which to my mind isn't very God like.

Men may have called the Valar Gods, and they may appear to be God like to man, but I don't think that means they actually are ?

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 02-05-2003, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by celeb-galad
I would definitely call the Valar "Gods" and the Maiar "Angels".
Ilúvatar falls out of this category - he is the creator of all.

Hmmmm. I would call the Valar angels and the maiar lesser Valar. Eru is God, and he made the Valar. Plus the Valar and the Maiar were all considered the Ainur.

Artanis · 02-05-2003, 01:46 PM

Here is Tolkien's own words, from Letter #131:

Quote:

The cycles begin with a cosmogonical myth: the Music of the Ainur. God and the Valar (or powers: Englished as gods) are revealed. These latter are as we should say angelic powers, whose function is to exercise delegated authority in their spheres (of rule and government, not creation, making or re-making). They are 'divine', that is, were originally 'outside' and existed 'before' the making of the world. Their power and wisdom is derived from their Knowledge of the cosmogonical drama, which they perceived first as a drama (that is as in a fashion we perceive a story composed by some-one else), and later as a 'reality'. On the side of mere narrative device, this is, of course, meant to provide beings of the same order of beauty, power, and majesty as the 'gods' of higher mythology, which can yet be accepted - well, shall we say baldly, by a mind that believes in the Blessed Trinity.

Eru = God, the Creator
The Valar = Angelic powers, rulers of the world.

barrelrider110 · 02-05-2003, 01:55 PM

Thank you.

WallRocker · 02-05-2003, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Artanis
Eru = God, the Creator
The Valar = Angelic powers, rulers of the world.

I'd agree. Also, it would seem to me that Eru is the God of all and the Valar are the "Gods" of ME.

Captain Stern · 02-05-2003, 05:24 PM

Well in a Christian sense I think they fall into the following categories:

Illuvatar = God
Valar = Arch Angels
Maiar = Angels

But, on the other hand, they do resemble Gods in various myths and legends (the Norse pantheon being a prime example), which I think is what Tolkien was trying to get at when he called the Valar Gods...

afro-elf · 02-05-2003, 07:39 PM

I stand with Captain stern.

Wayfarer · 02-06-2003, 01:02 AM

Tolkien called them angelic gods, I believe. Seperate from and less than eru, the one God.

markedel · 02-06-2003, 01:28 AM

The valar are angels-but made "godlike" in the mythological sense because such beings are "necessary" for such a myth cycle.

Artanis · 02-06-2003, 02:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Captain Stern
Illuvatar = God
Valar = Arch Angels
Maiar = Angels

Question from a non-Christian: What's the difference between an Arch Angel and an Angel?

barrelrider110 · 02-06-2003, 09:41 AM

I'm not a master of bible studies by any stretch, but I can define Archangels as leaders in the hierarchy of angels; they have angels under them and who answer to them. Interestingly, Lucifer (Satan) is generally considered to be a peer to the archangels such as Michael and Gabriel. Is there a ring of allegory here?

Artanis · 02-06-2003, 09:45 AM

Thanks.

Arien the Maia · 02-06-2003, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Artanis
Question from a non-Christian: What's the difference between an Arch Angel and an Angel?

an arch angel is of a higher order than an angel. Lucifer (Satan) is considered the highest/mightiest angel God created. It's interesting that Melkor was modeled after him huh?

Also Michael the archangel is the one who cast Lucifer into hell...I guess that would leave Michael as a Manwe type

Gwaimir Windgem · 02-06-2003, 03:09 PM

But isn't Michael the captain of the Hosts of Heaven? The impression I got of Manwe was of a pure, pacifistic good, which is altogether too pure to truly understand the nature of Evil; isn't that why He released Morgoth?

Also, I think there's only one archangel, Michael. Of course, there is no where in the Bible where it says this, but a few things I found when researching angels/archangels for a discussion of them on another board led me to that belief.

Also, Tolkien often refers to the Valar as gods (lower case 'g'), and he refers to Iluvatar as God (upper case 'G'), both in the Letters. I think he summed it up best when he said (parphrasing here, don't remember the exact quote) 'The Valar are gods in regards to power, but not in regards to theology.' He also says that they are invoked from time to time by the peoples of Middle-Earth, but in the sense that Catholics may invoke a saint, rather than a prayer to God/a god.

Arien the Maia · 02-06-2003, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
But isn't Michael the captain of the Hosts of Heaven? The impression I got of Manwe was of a pure, pacifistic good, which is altogether too pure to truly understand the nature of Evil; isn't that why He released Morgoth?

Also, I think there's only one archangel, Michael. Of course, there is no where in the Bible where it says this, but a few things I found when researching angels/archangels for a discussion of them on another board led me to that belief.

Also, Tolkien often refers to the Valar as gods (lower case 'g'), and he refers to Iluvatar as God (upper case 'G'), both in the Letters. I think he summed it up best when he said (parphrasing here, don't remember the exact quote) 'The Valar are gods in regards to power, but not in regards to theology.' He also says that they are invoked from time to time by the peoples of Middle-Earth, but in the sense that Catholics may invoke a saint, rather than a prayer to God/a god.

I don't think that Michael is exactly like Manwe but they are similar. Lucifer was the highest angel untill he chose not to follow God...According to Catholic tradition, the angels were given one choice, to follow God or to not follow Him.
I think that Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael are all considered archangels. Michael is the captian of the Host of Heaven. I think the Bible only names 3 those angels specifically. I do remember in Lotr where Faramir asks the Valar to have mercy on someone...I forget who....I guess that is sort of parallel to Catholics asking a saint to intercede for them.

Gwaimir Windgem · 02-06-2003, 05:25 PM

I think it was "May the Valar turn him (Mumak) aside!" Of course, they could have both been there.

And let's not forget the numerous invocations of Elbereth.

02-05-2003, 10:56 AM	#2
Maedhros The Tall Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Formenos Posts: 578	Angels, Ilúvatar is the one true God. __________________ “What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.

02-05-2003, 01:55 PM	#8
barrelrider110 Peer of the realm of Sanguine Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Hill, Marlton, NJ Posts: 798	Thank you. __________________ “"I am the friend of bears and the guest of eagles. I am Ringwinner and Luckwearer; and I am Barrel-rider," Fear Complacency! ___________________ Something under the bed is drooling

02-05-2003, 05:24 PM	#10
Captain Stern Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 319	Well in a Christian sense I think they fall into the following categories: Illuvatar = God Valar = Arch Angels Maiar = Angels But, on the other hand, they do resemble Gods in various myths and legends (the Norse pantheon being a prime example), which I think is what Tolkien was trying to get at when he called the Valar Gods... __________________ Then hate overcame Fëanor's fear, and he cursed Melkor and bade him be gone, saying 'Get thee gone from my gate, thou jail-crow of Mandos!' And he shut the doors of his house in the face of the mightiest of all dwellers in Eä.

02-05-2003, 07:39 PM	#11
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	I stand with Captain stern. __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

02-06-2003, 01:02 AM	#12
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Tolkien called them angelic gods, I believe. Seperate from and less than eru, the one God. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

02-05-2003, 10:47 AM	#1
barrelrider110 Peer of the realm of Sanguine Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Hill, Marlton, NJ Posts: 798	Valar: Gods or Angels? Before reading the Silmarillion, I read a few essays about the work, and a few of them refer to the Valar as Gods, and some refer to them as angels. Now I know these terms are "dumbed down," but after reading the Sil twice it still puzzles me, so I would like to inquire of the participants of this forum (whom I consider to be very wise): If you had to categorize the Valar in this manner, how would you describe them? __________________ “"I am the friend of bears and the guest of eagles. I am Ringwinner and Luckwearer; and I am Barrel-rider," Fear Complacency! ___________________ Something under the bed is drooling Last edited by barrelrider110 : 02-05-2003 at 10:48 AM.

02-05-2003, 12:11 PM	#4
celeb-galad Hobbit Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Olore Malle, the path of dreams Posts: 27	I would definitely call the Valar "Gods" and the Maiar "Angels". Ilúvatar falls out of this category - he is the creator of all.

02-06-2003, 01:28 AM	#13
markedel 'Sober' Mullet Frosh Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Queen's Posts: 1,245	The valar are angels-but made "godlike" in the mythological sense because such beings are "necessary" for such a myth cycle. __________________ "Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom"

02-06-2003, 09:41 AM	#15
barrelrider110 Peer of the realm of Sanguine Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Hill, Marlton, NJ Posts: 798	I'm not a master of bible studies by any stretch, but I can define Archangels as leaders in the hierarchy of angels; they have angels under them and who answer to them. Interestingly, Lucifer (Satan) is generally considered to be a peer to the archangels such as Michael and Gabriel. Is there a ring of allegory here? __________________ “"I am the friend of bears and the guest of eagles. I am Ringwinner and Luckwearer; and I am Barrel-rider," Fear Complacency! ___________________ Something under the bed is drooling Last edited by barrelrider110 : 02-06-2003 at 09:45 AM.

02-06-2003, 09:45 AM	#16
Artanis Greatest Elven woman of Aman Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7 Posts: 4,285	Thanks. __________________ --Life is hard, and then we die.

02-06-2003, 03:09 PM	#18
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	But isn't Michael the captain of the Hosts of Heaven? The impression I got of Manwe was of a pure, pacifistic good, which is altogether too pure to truly understand the nature of Evil; isn't that why He released Morgoth? Also, I think there's only one archangel, Michael. Of course, there is no where in the Bible where it says this, but a few things I found when researching angels/archangels for a discussion of them on another board led me to that belief. Also, Tolkien often refers to the Valar as gods (lower case 'g'), and he refers to Iluvatar as God (upper case 'G'), both in the Letters. I think he summed it up best when he said (parphrasing here, don't remember the exact quote) 'The Valar are gods in regards to power, but not in regards to theology.' He also says that they are invoked from time to time by the peoples of Middle-Earth, but in the sense that Catholics may invoke a saint, rather than a prayer to God/a god. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

02-06-2003, 05:25 PM	#20
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	I think it was "May the Valar turn him (Mumak) aside!" Of course, they could have both been there. And let's not forget the numerous invocations of Elbereth. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

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