Magic in Middle-Earth

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I'm not really sure about magic or power in Middle-Earth. I was under the impression that only beings like Elves and Maiar could use it; but RotK refers to the Witch-King as a Sorcerer (not to mention he's called the Witch-King)

What's the deal on Middle-Earth magic?

[Wayfarer]

Magic in middle earth was a natural force. Everyone was in some way 'magical'. Elves and maiar, however, were the only races that commonly had the strength to perform effective magic.

[Artanis]

Magic is perhaps not a good word. In Lorien, one of the Hobbits asked one of the Elves about magic, who answered that magic was not something the Elves knew about. Which I think means that they only used their natural skills to achieve and make what they did, but for those who do not possess such skills it would seem like magic.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Artanis
Magic is perhaps not a good word. In Lorien, one of the Hobbits asked one of the Elves about magic, who answered that magic was not something the Elves knew about. Which I think means that they only used their natural skills to achieve and make what they did, but for those who do not possess such skills it would seem like magic.

True. The Elves didn't understand what was meant by the word "magic." When the Hobbits asked about the cloaks being magic, the Elf answered, saying something like: "We put all that we love into all that we make. They are fair garmants, but they will not bend shaft or blade." When Galadreil showed Frodo the Mirror, she said to him: "This I believe is what you would call magic." If the Elven nature is not magic, than it must be a powerful natural ability to what appears as magic. Examples such as the Rings of Power, having the ability to ward off the effects of time, and Gandalf's ring being able to strengthen hearts. Many Elven blades that glow when Orcs are about, or that seem sentient such as Anglachel. The Phial of Galadriel holding the light of Earendil. All these posessing properties and abilities that appear magical.

In the Silmarillion though, Tolkien describes it more as an art. When Finrod changed the faces and forms of himself and his companions into the likeness of Orcs, Tolkien says it was done by: "the arts of Felagund," however, in the song of power between Sauron and Finrod, Tolkien says of Finrod: "All the magic and might he brought of Elveness into his words." We are faced with a staggering contradiction now. However, since this is a part of the Lay of Leithien and from the original myth, Tolkien may have started out meaning for the Elves to be magical, but changed it to the more complex scenerio that we know in LotRs and the Sil.

So, now the question is: is it a natural ability limited to the immortals of Arda, or is it magic that only they posess? My guess is that it is probably more natural then magic. Why? Because the Elves were destine to die not until the world died and naturally because of their longevity would need a greater ability to aid them throughout the long years, and because they were made more like to the Ainur than Men, they would also posess a more spiritual, or call it: super-natural power than would mortals. Not that mortals wouldn't posess some of these abilities, but not as great and surly not as necessary as the more spiritual immortals called the Elves.

I also would say that the Elves posessed different levels of these abilities depending on who and what they were. It makes sense that the Exiles were probably greater with this power since they were nurtured in the Undying Lands, than say, the Avari, but all had abilities.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

But what of the Witch-King? Gandalf describes him as a Sorcerer, and I think the Mouth of Sauron was also called a sorcerer.

I suppose it depends on your definition of magic: I would call these natural abilities that you refer to magic, because they are something above and beyond what is possessed by the Men (By which I mean that it is something different, not on a greater scale). By this I mean things like the songs of power, and the Mirror of Galadriel, as opposed to the great abilities of the Elves. But weapons that glow when Evil is near, and Rings of Power are not things, I would think, which are merely made with great smithing skills, but with magic woven into them as well. As always, I could certainly be wrong about this, though.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
But what of the Witch-King? Gandalf describes him as a Sorcerer, and I think the Mouth of Sauron was also called a sorcerer.

I don't think that the Witch King of course posessed any of the abilities of a sorcerer until after his corruption by the One Ring. He remained that way since he was under the power of Sauron I would think. I can't speak on the Mouth of Sauron, but I wonder if a being as emense in "magical" abilities such as Sauron, was capable of imparting a degree of these powers to a being of his choice. Is it transferable? That was another point I was making with the Exiles. Since they were born and nutured in Valinor by the Valar, could some of this power of the Ainur have been transfered to the Elves, therefore enhancing even more their own natural abilities?

[WallRocker]

I like your answers, SGH.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by WallRocker
I like your answers, SGH.

Thank you WallRocker, of course it is mostly speculation.

[Ithildin55]

In “Laws and Customs” Tolkien mentions that the chief difference between Elves and Men was in the “fate and nature” of their spirits. Elves are said to have had greater power and command over their bodies than men, and this is what protected them from disease and enabled them to heal quickly and from wounds that would prove fatal to men.

So, to add to the speculation concerning ‘magic’... My opinion is that most Elven ‘magic’ is simply an extension of the Elves’ more powerful spirits – and a result of their innate abilities, imbued by Ilúvatar, rather than some learned art or spell. It was all part of their ‘natural abilities’ as SGH previously mentioned.

However, in the case of the Witch King and the Mouth of Sauron; they were described as engaging in sorcery. Their ‘magic’ came from the power of evil, external to themselves. I’m not up on the history of the Witch King, but it was my feeling that it was his forays into sorcery that ensnared him in the first place. Then when Sauron came along and offered him a ring of power, he willingly accepted, and only later discovered that he was enslaved. (I could be wrong about that, though.) The Mouth of Sauron was described as having learned great sorcery from Sauron.

As to the Ainur bestowing ‘magical powers’ to the Elves in Valinor, well, I think of it as imparting spiritual strength – and, yes, I see it as a real possibility. If being around the Valar enhanced their spirits, their ‘magical’ abilities would be enhanced also.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Yes, I've always thought of the magic of Elves as being an innate ability, something they're born with, rather than something achieved by arcane study.

SGH: I would agree with you, except that in letter 210 Tolkien said that the Nazgul had little power other than that of fear, which leads me to believe that the Witch-Kings sorcery was something he had before he became a Nazgul.

[Sister Golden Hair]

SGH: I would agree with you, except that in letter 210 Tolkien said that the Nazgul had little power other than that of fear, which leads me to believe that the Witch-Kings sorcery was something he had before he became a Nazgul.

Granted you may be right about this GW. I don't own "Letter"
, but how could the Witch King have the power of a sorcerer before the influence of Sauron and the Ring, if he was just a mortal man at that time?

[Eothain]

it is a natural thing.

[Ithildin55]

Sauron killed Celebrimor in SA 1697 and the Ringwraiths are first said to have appeared around SA 2251, 554 years later. I could find no reference as to who they were before Sauron enslaved them. The Mouth of Sauron, however was definitely both a mortal and a sorcerer:

“...yet this was no Ringwraith, but a living man. [...] But it is told that he was a renegade, who came of the race of those that are named the Black Númenóreans; for they established their dwellings in Middle-earth during the years of Sauron’s domination, and they worshipped him, being enamoured of evil knowledge.
And he entered the service of the Dark Tower when it first rose again, and because of his cunning he grew ever higher in the Lord’s favour; and he learned great sorcery, and knew much of the mind of Sauron; and he was more cruel than any orc.” The Black Gate Opens, RotK

This article on the subject of magic in ME makes some interesting points also:
http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/55744

[Aragorn_of_the_west]

Iteresting- meaning that his being a Numenorean and his evil skills, gave him the abillity of 'magic'. Because the Numenoreans were not ordinary mortals- they were more close to the elves- mabey that gave them the oppertunity to have 'magic' abillities more then ordinary men.

[Linaewen]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair

In the Silmarillion though, Tolkien describes it more as an art. When Finrod changed the faces and forms of himself and his companions into the likeness of Orcs, Tolkien says it was done by: "the arts of Felagund," however, in the song of power between Sauron and Finrod, Tolkien says of Finrod: "All the magic and might he brought of Elveness into his words." We are faced with a staggering contradiction now. However, since this is a part of the Lay of Leithien and from the original myth, Tolkien may have started out meaning for the Elves to be magical, but changed it to the more complex scenerio that we know in LotRs and the Sil.

Oh. This is most annoying- I found this HUGE chunk in one of my books describing magic as an 'art' and now I am desperately trying to relocate it. I will participate in this thread more when I find that passage and also find the time to read thru the previous messages.. (so...long...)

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Actually, AotW, I believe that I read somewhere that, despite the fact that three of the Ringwraiths were Black Numenoreans, the Witch-King in fact was not one.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

that three of the Ringwraiths were Black Numenoreans, the Witch-King in fact was not one

Nope-I think I remember reading in U.T that the witckhking was a Black Numenorean. I think he may have been the brother of a Numenorean King, or he was at least a Descendant of Elros. I cannot find the quote at the mo.

[Artanis]

*bump*

I think it is correct, as several posters in this thread have said (including myself, wooo ), to interpret 'magic' as an inherent, natural ability that is not easily comprehended by other races and therefore may appear as magic to them. The Elves have many skills which are regarded as 'magical' from the point of view of other people. So have the Druedain, and so have the Dwarves. Notably, only Men seem to lack any abilities that might be considered 'magical' by others. That's indeed interesting! Even Hobbits do possess at least one ability which may be seen as 'magic':

They possessed from the first the art of disappearing swiftly and silently, when large folk whom they do not wish to meet come blundering by; and this an they have developed until to Men it may seem magical. But Hobbits have never, in fact, studied magic of any kind, and their elusiveness is due solely to a professional skill that heredity and practice, and a close friendship with the earth, have rendered inimitable by bigger and clumsier races.

But here Tolkien is using the word 'art' about the Hobbit skill of avoiding to be seen (as in SGH's example with Finrod), and the word 'magic' to oppose this. Tolkien considered the Elves to be primarily artists, concerned with subcreation. It is interesting then to see that Galadriel distinguishes between 'good magic' and 'evil magic', while speaking to Frodo and Sam about the Mirror in Lórien:

For this is what your folk would call magic. I believe; though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem also to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy.

And then she goes on naming the Mirror as Elf-magic:

But this, if you will, is the magic of Galadriel. Did you not say that you wished to see Elf-magic?

However, it is not obvious to me that there is a clear difference between what Galadriel names as Elf-magic and what she considers as "deceits of the Enemy". Sauron and his Rings of Power and Saruman with his seductive voice are both examples of big time deceivers, though their powers without doubt are inherent and natural. But we do have 'good' characters performing this kind of 'magic' too. Examples: In Doriath we see Melian using her divine power to form the Girdle, which I think we may regard as a form of deception, a sort of bewildering of the mind and not a physical barrier. We may also include her means to catch Elwë as husband. And Galadriel herself is capable of deception too, as Boromir clearly suspects and voices:

"Maybe it was only a test, and she thought to read our thoughts for her own good purpose; but almost I should have said that she was tempting us, and offering what she pretended to have the power to give"

What is then the difference between 'good magic' and 'evil magic'? I think the answer lies in the intent of the action. If the motive behind is considered evil, then the magic performed is also considered an evil act. If 'magic' is used with the purpose of dominating other people's will, or with the purpose of going beyond the bonds of nature, then it is evil.

IIRC Tolkien made a distiction between 'magic' which worked within the physical world, like the drowning of the Black Riders at the Ford of Bruinen and Gandalf putting fire to a wet log of wood in the mountains, and the 'magic' which worked within people's minds. Here I have discussed only the latter, but I think what is said can be applied to the former also.

End of rambling. Comments anyone?

[Haradrim]

Everything is relative. as well as magic. Magic is magic because we dont have it. To those who are born with it isnt extraordinary it just is. If you learn it it would be magic to you because you have asscended to a higher potential. Magic in ME seems to be subtle almost liek tis nto there. Its more the power of eprsuasion or the power to make the winds move faster or the stream go faster or to create illusions. Also the whole thing about foresight is that because the Valar saw the vison of Arda they know things. he elves lived with the Valar for a long time so it makes sense that they would eba able to see something themselves and numenoreans to a lesser extent. Magic in ME to me is the power of subtelty and small changes that start something bigger.

[Attalus]

Good post, Artanis. I read somewhere that JRRT said in the Letters that despite Galadriel's words, there was no substantive difference beween Sauron's magic and that of the Elves, but I have never been able to find it. I also note about the Mouth of Sauron that he is said to have learned great sorcery, not that he was able to perform it, though I admit he could have.